With the House having acted, and the debate moving to the Senate, do you support U.S. health insurance reform?

I agree Mr. ChollyHydnall. They say it will be harder in the senate but the majority of Americans are for it. I think it was harder in the house for a lot of dems who were in red districts vs. senators who are elected statewide so I think the President and I hope Reid can persuade those they need to but in all, I too think we will have reform sooner than I thought.

The senate will pass its own version. It won't much matter what is in it, just so something passes. Then it will go to a committee to work out the combined bill and send it to the President. That's where the real fight always has been. Can the House keep the public option in? Can they eliminate last night's amendment? Can they eliminate the useless 'co-op' nonsense? Can they keep the teeth in the bill and make dropping patients when they get sick illegal? That's the real fight. Because once passed, the reconciled bill cannot be filibustered. It requires only a simple majority to pass.

If any version of the bill passes, it will be so FUBARed and full of lobbyist favors it will complete the bankruptcy of this once great nation.

In the former Soviet Union, the only people with access to vaccines and effective medicines were the political elites, and they were imported from the west... this is what we are headed toward.

So I guess you're moving to another country then.

Makarovguy

You've had 8 years to break it we will take a couple of years and fix it so you guys will never have a chance to break it again.

Yes, the government has done such a fabulous job with the H1N1 vaccine...I can't wait until they do healthcare for us...more lines, less supply, longer waits, it'll be just great!

Oh, and did I mention the 6 month wait for prexisiting conditions in the Senate bill?

Did Harry fix that? Nope...you don't think people will die waiting to get into the "high risk pool"? And how many will die before they implement this program? I mean, if this is so good and people are dying, lets do it tomorrow...can't have anybody dying waiting - that was one of the arguments for this stupid bill - if that was the premise then how is this going to help ANYBODY for the next 4+ years?? I'd like to have just that questioned answered by you geniuses - oh, and no ideals, and utopia stuff - just how the crap is this going to help the person who develops cancer and has to wait 6 months or years before they can get treated? How many more will die in the meantime?

Links:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2378994/posts

http://www.articlesbase.com/insurance-articles/healthcare-reform-with-preexisting-conditions-wait-6-months-for-insurance-1429817.html

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/11/05/democrats-plan-help-uninsurables-questioned/

http://theeprovocateur.blogspot.com/2009/11/six-month-wait-in-high-risk-pool.html

We will look back at this time and say, why was congress and the senate so stupid? How could we have been this stupid to allow them to pass a bill like this?

By "this" you mean what exactly?

The bill that passed yesterday?

Don't count on it.

Desertgirl,

Yes. When the prices start rolling in and people realize what freedoms were given up in this bill, they will be shocked. Now, for those who won't be paying anything because of this bill, you will be happy. You can get your free abortions. You don't even have to help pay for illegal aliens to get their health care free.

This problem with health care reform is way to important just to have one party write and pass it for the whole country. But some of you think this is okay. It wasn't okay when the repubs did it, but now it is because the dems did it. Go figure!

Makarovguy, is your keyboard broken?

H&R Blayde & Caloz, I am real surprised and happy about the house HCR action. I want to take a breath and celebrate but you are right, there is no time to rest for the wary, where health care is concerned.

I just used tweet your Senator for the first time. Now this is real useful, as we move to have Reid in the Senate match Pelosi's excellent effectiveness in the house.

If we are all calling, emailing (standard and Iphone) and tweeting we will create a pressure on the Senate never seen in the history of this body.

Thanks for the Tweet link, Carloz.

I tweeted, and then watched the map on the site for a minute.

It was being updated constantly as others all around the nation voiced their opinion that health care reform must be enacted.

I want to thank Carloz for posting the seed, and getting this discussion going. I have never been a political activist and I would still resist the title but Obama changed me, I have donated money, and made phone calls because Obama invokes us, rather than talking at us. He includes us by saying we rather than I, that makes me want to contribute what talent and resources that I can.

...the vandals will continue to disrupt the process at all cost...

The vandals are part of the process.

Perhaps, but they are like the asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs. Then again the asteroid was just having a nice day, until it hit the earth, these guys go out and look for the opportunity to cause a disruption.

You do realize that "they" see you in the same light?

Nobody is actually against GOOD reform. That is not what many of us are seeing.

HI Blayde

we must keep the pressure on by making phone calls, and writing letters.

Will do. Both of our Senators are Republicans. OH WELL.

" Nobody is actually against GOOD reform " There are absolutely no elements of 'reform' in the current legislation... special interests, like the trial lawyers, have their interests protected... The need for catastrophic medical insurance, available nationwide is pressing... but his bill goes exactly the opposite direction...

" Nobody is actually against GOOD reform " There are absolutely no elements of 'reform' in the current legislation... special interests, like the trial lawyers, have their interests protected... The need for catastrophic medical insurance, available nationwide is pressing... but his bill goes exactly the opposite direction...

Agreed

Used your tweet thing to message Senator Feinstein to not sell out our children's future.

Thanks Jason

Nobody is actually against GOOD reform.

Unless it is to one's political advantage to be against it. This was supposed to be Obama's Waterloo, remember? Opposition to health care reform is more political than it is technical.

Thanks carloz, we know who to tweet to tell them "no-way" should they pass this bill!

I will admit I have not had a chance to read the bill, but I have paid attention to what was being said. I thought there were cost containment measures in this bill. I am so disappointed.

That's odd. I emailed my rep telling him he lost my vote - because he voted for the bill.

My representative also voted against the bill, but he already knows that I do not support him, and have not since he became my representative. But he's really, really good at sucking up to the ultra-conservatives that seem to dominate politics in my district, so he remains.

I try again next year to eliminate him from the government, but I'm outnumbered.

I will admit I have not had a chance to read the bill

When you do, you will realize your rep did you a favor.

So you say your rep has lost your vote because he voted against a bill that you admit you haven't read and-- I assume--are uninformed as to the particulars?

Your entire opinion about the rep's vote and the bill in question has ZERO credibility as it based on nothing.

you think you guys got it bad ive got a lock step republican congressman .hes not going to vote for anything.single payer paid for with taxes is the fairest way to cover every one,medicare for everyone.all the unemployed go into medicle care.

I guess I didn't express myself well. I have read summaries of the bill but I have not personally read it from page one. I work too hard to have the time to do that. I am concerened that it gives too much to the insurance companies and too few people will have the public option available to them. I am not thrilled with the bill, but it is better than what we have now and a million times better than the corporate give away that came from the Republicans or the mistake that came from Baucus.

It's a start and perhaps it will stop some of the death certificates I have to sign because the person could not afford health care.

Probably, but he is going to be there, a very long time like you said, waiting, having to sit next to a poor person.

When the government screws this up and creates a new arm of bureaucracy, look in the mirror for the reason so much of your tax dollars are being wasted, spent on the slowest moving, stupidest people on the planet. BTW - when insurance companies have their own private doctors for only the very rich, and they are the only ones able to perform expensive surgery, look in the mirror again when you have to tell cancer patients in the massive middle class that there is no funding or, they will have to wait well beyond their lifespan.

Congrats on your health care. Tell the overwhelming majority of people that have health care now, that they are not going to get as good of service as before. Yes a few will now have health care that didn't have a chance before but, at what price. And yes, your correct in thinking that many people die due to no health care but, now even more will perish due to the CZAR system that is place right now.

If this whole thing does pass, I will have no choice but to pay the fine and remove medical insurance from all employees. I would be grateful if you could tell them for me since I will be hard pressed to look them in the eye and tell them I can no longer afford insurance and taxes on top, it would put me out of business and we are barely making it now with the owners currently being paid the same as the lowest paid employee. Wow, this sucks. Thanks for completely understanding how most small businesses will be forced to do the very same thing. And finally, thank you for seeing the other side of the argument so thoroughly and deciding that we must perish as a business or pay for more than our fair share.

Wow, Paxil. Did you read the bill? Have you done any research? Nice rant, but little reality in it.

paxil, I'm with you.

It's amazing that to get costs under control, to regulate, that somehow one needs 2000 pages and $1,200,000,000,000 dollars.

No one knows what's in the bill because a public debate, as Obama promised, is not happening. Yo ucan read the words, but it's too complex to make sense of it.

Is malpractice insurance going to be under control? Who knows...

Proponents look at the bill as a "feel good social justice" thing. Specifics and results don't matter.

The town halls, with the 1000 page HR3200, screamed "read the bill". Pelosi is now giving us double the garbage. No really - the thing is 2000 pages.

I had to read through the whole damn thing. Granted I don't understand some spots of the double talk but, my insurance carrier, my attorney and our CFO have a very good understanding of it.

Karri - you have no clue of what you are talking about and you definitely are in no position to make ANY financial decisions for a group, that is painfully obvious and please never try as you only hurt anyone around you with your conclusions.

Rickeroo - I am sorry, you are right, it has some areas that I specifically highlighted for my carrier and attorney, they laughed and said everyone who sent them questions had the exact same areas highlighted so they really got into it and the bottom line is that of the seven companies that are my size, and general type of engineering work, ALL are going to pay the fines and dump the health care to public sector in order to stay fiscally responsible (stay alive) with the exception of owners. That's 100% of the few firms I generally talk to about these items with here in Carlsbad, CA.

Sadder days are on the way if this lunatic in office doesn't stop being financially irresponsible.

Sadder days are on the way if this lunatic in office doesn't stop being financially irresponsible. Agreed... 'The Road to Hell....' The encouraging note: economist Art Laffler said in an interview that the economy can be turned around around during a (very) long weekend...i.e selling off nationalized assets, etc... apparently he has been through this situation with other nations.

Wow, Paxil. Did you read the bill? Have you done any research? Nice rant, but little reality in it.

ROFL @ Karri-M. You just admitted earlier that you have not read the bill. Then you say this AND several blind sheep vote you up. This thread is getting hilarious.

I mean, nice attempt, but LITTLE REALITY IN IT...lol

Wonder if this analogy is true: Those who oppose public health care would prefer spending billions of taxpayers dollars on continuing the war in Mideast? Just a hunch.

Just imagine the sheeple's surprise when they are confronted with the idea of having to a) either buy government insurance maybe because their company simple drops them because it costs too much or b) get fined for not having it...that's when reality will hit, and I will laugh in their faces for being too ignorant and up people's tail to realize they were being lied to and screwed the whole time!

Karri - you have no clue of what you are talking about and you definitely are in no position to make ANY financial decisions for a group, that is painfully obvious and please never try as you only hurt anyone around you with your conclusions.

Do you have any idea what I do? I do make financial decisions for a group. I also make employee benefit decisions for my organization -- and that includes health care decisions. I sit on many local committees looking at health care delivery systems. I am a health care professional. So, I knew where to get a rational summary of the bill and I did understand the different summaries I read. There are things I don't like and it definately needs to be made better. However, it is better than what we have now; I feel it is a sin that we have people dying because they can't afford health care (and I should know since I am the one who signs the death certificates.)

So, I am a health care professional; I investigate deaths; I make health care benefit decisions for my organization; I sit on committees looking at health care reform; I know how to research scientific and legal sources for non-partisian summaries. I would prefer to have read the entire bill, but I am too busy working 70-90 hours a week investigating unnecesary deaths so I have to rely on summaries.

Personally, I would not rely on an insurance rep or a CFO to explain this bill to me; I understand the health care system much better than the reps I deal with. I also would not need a lawyer to explain it to me; I actually understand legalese.

What precisely in the bill bothers you? If you give me a page and paragraph number, I will explain it to you. (And, as I said, there things I don't like in it and I will happy to admit that to you too.) But do NOT insult my knowledge of the health care system and the various reform measures out there.

a) either buy government insurance maybe because their company simple drops them because it costs too much

Currently, many companies are dropping their insurance benefits because it is already too expensive. However, right now, those employees are out of luck since they don't have a government option to fall back on. Every year in my organization, we face painful decisions regarding our insurance coverage. Our rates are skyrocketing. How much of the increase can we afford to take on? How much of this increase do we pass on to the employees? What kind of changes do we make in the coverage to keep it more affordable (read, decreased coverage and/or increased co-pays)? Already, the programs are becoming too expensive for some of our employees. I have one employee for whom 75% of her take-home pay goes to her insurance premium -- and she has the cheapest family policy!

If there was a government option -- that ANYONE could get -- maybe our premiums would not be escalating the way it has been.

Karri-M:

Currently, many companies are dropping their insurance benefits because it is already too expensive. However, right now, those employees are out of luck since they don't have a government option to fall back on. Every year in my organization, we face painful decisions regarding our insurance coverage. Our rates are skyrocketing.

It stuns me that so many people seem to not know this very important fact.

if it exists online, would you mind pointing me toward a non-partisan summary of this bill?

A link for the bill itself:

http://docs.house.gov/rules/health/111_ahcaa.pdf

A summary:

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-3962

http://energycommerce.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1687&catid=156&Itemid=55

There is a lot I like and a lot I don't. We'll have to see where it leads. At least it has a public option and that is my bottom line.

Thanks, Karri. The public option is also my bottom line.

" Congressional health care reform " I find it strange that even opponents persist in calling it 'health care reform ' instead of something more accurate i.e. 'health care takeover' or 'nationalized health care '. Conservatives have allowed the left to frame the terms of the debate, foolishly, imo...

I won't, thank you. Not because of angry people for this bill but, because as owners of a company, we started businesses for the betterment of our families and the possibility of spreading the opportunity with employees. We now will have to pay the fine and send all employees to the government health care due to costs. Read my other thread to understand why and know that my company has always given preference to employees since day one. Thanks.

Fear mongering is not attractive.

Not fear mongering. Just being factual. People believing this reform is a good thing is is more fear mongering than those who are trying to help uninformed people. By saying that a person who reads the entire document is in favor of it is actually fear mongering.

It is amazing that someone that has actually read the bill and attepted to be informative has to deal with trollish comments that accuse of fearmongering. Obviously an ill informed little click following each other around for vote ups here. Newsflash: Newsvine vote ups are not the issue here. Saving our country from the whoremongers that trick the gullible with little doggy treats that make them feel good for a few minutes is the issue.

I can't follow the insanity on this thread anymore. Got to go meditate or something. Over and out.

?

Is there someone out there who does not favor health care reform?

I am a fiscal conservative and I know that I favor health care reform.

Others share my position.

We just insist on real reform, not the monstrosities being tossed around on the Hill.

Trolls ---- Up until now no real discussion was ever exercised by the American people. There is no plan Obama couldn't have put any plan --- hear me any plan in front of the American people that the health care lobbyists and troll bottom feeders many on Newsvine would not have torn apart and criticized,

Fear mongering is not attractive.

Actually, this is what I was referring to. Paxildog took the time to read the bill and understand how it will affect him/her and his employees. He should be commended.

BTW - I am for a reform of health care, just not what was done to be expedient. They should have gone through tort reform first and then onto how to deal with uninsured, the plan they now have moving forward is doomed. Fiscally irresponsible and penalizes everyone who was being responsible.

Amazing how so many only see that everyone is theoretically going to get health care, they won't. This also is opening another door for a World War II position Hitler used and we currently call them a czar. It saddensme that liberals never read history books, thereby forcing societies to perform the same mistakes made before. This bill, if passed, will be the major jumping point for many people to start revolting against our government. Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols may only be a blip in history compared to what will happen and that scares me because we could have easily avoided it by winning the minds of most and not coercing everyone to this plan, a mentality tact that always fails and is being used heavily by this administration.

Tort costs (outside of premiums) are about 1% or less of health care costs. There are several states that have strong tort reform. In those states, payouts have gone down but malpractice premiums have not seen a commensurate drop. Tort reform has only increased insurance profits.

In addtion to that, tort reform actually protects poor practice. My mother was the victim of malpractice, but because of her age, she had "no financial value." (And, yes, I do have the authority and knowledge to state that she was a victim of malpractice.)

Dr. did you read it? it took me a few hrs to read(and thats while i was net surfing) and that is because it isn't written like a regular book.

while i agree it may take some americans months, (maybe even years) to read something that has ONE sentance per line (at 18 font), im sure the average 8th grade reader could accomplish it in a day. A high school graduate in even less time.

http://docs.house.gov/rules/health/111_ahcaa.pdf

Hey, Dr. Know. Last time I read a book of over 1000 pages it took me about 3 days. And I did it on my own, I didn't have a staff of underlings to write synopses and outlines for me. The reason that it took so long is that I had almost constant interruptions: dogs needed to be walked, supper cooked, work to accomplish for my publishers.

Reading every word of a bill is not that important. Having highly knowledgeable staff who can condense it down and identify potential problems is key.

Makarovguy

Im so happy!Im going to the gun store.

Just remember it's the little hole you point away from you. Of course you should really take lessons.

Just remember it's the little hole you point away from you.

Shh! Sometimes the best lessons are the ones hardest learned.

Make sure your hard-learned mistake is at your expense only.

So what do you want? I'd like single payer myself, but I can admit this is not politically feasible right now. Yes, it will dramatically reduce costs, like it has in other industrialized nations, but I guess we are not that fiscally responsible and/or that modernized yet.

Karri, again I agree.

The form I want the reform to take doesnt really matter as much as whether or not it works properly.

In abstract, Id like to see a single payer system run by a non-profit. However, it always comes down to how it would work out and the consequences of that system on doctors, hospital, research, development of new drugs, costs, etc.

This bill provides a huge plus to insurance companies and gives them guaranteed customers because now you are forced to take insurance at the barrel of a gun. No insurance, heres hefty fines or possibly jail time.

Another question is, so on what grounds can insurance companies refuse people now? Or are they required to accept every person that wants insurance from their company? Do they no longer have right to refuse to serve a potential customer like every other business? Im not pro-ins company, I think they are middle man that dont add anything but costs to the whole process, but these are items that will need to addressed.

Why does it only cover 96%? What about the other 4%? How easily they are forgotten. What are reasons why those people arent covered?

As for the amendment that they of course refused where they would be stuck with the same options that we are, people try to counter that their employer offers them their plan and they shouldnt have to change. Well the employer is the government tax payer, aka us. I dont remember ever seeing the public vote or decide in any way to provide such insurance to our reps. I believe they did that themselves. They drafted it, they passed it, and we had no say in the matter. Thats not how things run where I work or have ever worked.

Good points, FL. This bill is a step in the right direction, but it is far, far from perfect.

No insurance, heres hefty fines or possibly jail time.

Well, at least in jail they'd get free health care!

However, I do believe we need universal, affordable (sliding scale, if necessary), quality health care. Anyone, no matter what age, can develop a devasting illness or be in an accident; therefore, they need health coverage.

This bill is a step in the right direction,

No it's not and you admitted you HAVEN'T read it. And we wonder why we, as a nation are in so much turmoil. Jiminy friggin crickets. Please refrain from voting on important issues.

Well, at least in jail they'd get free health care!

That HAS to be the most crass, ignorant and uncaring statement thus far. Are you Pelosi posting under a fake name?

This bill is a step in the right direction, but it is far, far from perfect.

Agree with thirdfeast, this is not a step in the right direction. Its a step backwards because its enough of a change where they blinded you with hope. Its so hard to undo bad legislation which is what this is. So now, should this pass, which it hopefully wont, we will not only not really get real reform, well have bad legislation well have to get rid of.

You are both right. We need to just open up Medicare to everyone. Period. Done. The system is already in place and it could be written in less than ten pages.

BTW, prisoners are required to receive free health care in jail. Yes, the statement was crass, but true. Don't you think hard working people deserve health care, too?

BTW, prisoners are required to receive free health care in jail. Yes, the statement was crass, but true. Don't you think hard working people deserve health care, too?

I am one of those hard working people. And I read the bill and I read between the lines.

Maybe you didn't really mean it, but we both know that is not what you implied. You were replying to this:

This bill provides a huge plus to insurance companies and gives them guaranteed customers because now you are forced to take insurance at the barrel of a gun. No insurance, heres hefty fines or possibly jail time.

So my choice to buy food for my family or gas to get to work to house my family would be overidden by the threat of jail if I don't put health insurance before those basic needs.

Sure criminals in jail get free healthcare. So now some would be criminals for not having it. Pelosicare (oops, an oxymoron)

So my choice to buy food for my family or gas to get to work to house my family would be overidden by the threat of jail if I don't put health insurance before those basic needs.

And this is precisely why I think we need universal coverage paid for by our taxes -- on a progressive scale. No one should have to make those choices. But right now, people are making those choices with their private insurances. Any mandate to buy insurance must be accompanied by a sliding scale public option.

As I have said, this is no where near the best bill, but with all the lobbyists in DC, it may be the best we can get -- until we get public financing of elections.

Well you do realize that having it paid for with your taxes amounts to the same thing. If its part of your taxes you are still given no choice and should you not pay your taxes, again fines and jail.

I am utterly amazed at the complete lack on intellectual curiosity on the part of Obamaites... They seem like good people, and reasonably intelligent, but appallingly ignorant. All this stuff has been tried before... " Those ignorant of history ...."

George: "All this stuff has been tried before...."

Yup! In England, France, Canada, etc., and they're all much healthier people than we are. I don't think our ranking in the world community is anything to be proud of. Maybe we should fix it?

Makarovguy: "can you back this up?Who ranks us anyway?"

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

Problem is, RWE, the majority of us (over 70%) WANT a public option. It is more likely that those who voted against the bill will have a tougher time keeping their jobs.

Karri-m

Problem is your so called majority of 73% are liberals only. Only 18% of conservatives

support Obamacare.

Fact- 54% of all Americans oppose government takeover of healthcare, 23% strongly

approve while 44% strongly dissaprove.

An example of government growing and freedom diminishing.

Government big enough to give you everything you want.

Is also strong enough to take everything you have. Gerald Ford

" majority of us (over 70%) WANT a public option. " I think not... seems as though quite a few thousand people recently showed up in DC to say otherwise, and lots of folks voted otherwise in VA & NJ... it would seem that it is the ultra-left which is being marginalized.

"500 milion drained from medicare" It sucks for elders... and the 40% shortfall in Medicare payments to health-care providers, currently being made up by private insurance carriers, is likely to cease if the carriers are forced out of business... Gran & Gramps are looking at the "Soylent Green" option.

The money you referred to is from Medicare Advantage. It is from the PROFITS that are being taken from the government (aka you and me) and not from Medicare itself. If seniors suffer, it is because their for-profit companies would rather harm their policy holders than take home a smaller bonus.

I agree. Our legislators need to be on the public option. It is the best was to assure we have a quality, affordable, robust public option.

Hear hear. or is it... Here here. Either works, although most cannot hear here.

Well I'm not going to go into specifics because I want to see how the Senate responds. I will say that I think what the House did in pushing a vote THIS weekend and passing THIS bill was nothing more than a political calculation done to save their own butts next year.

Word of warning to those supporting this vote: Do you really think Pelosi, Reid and others care about YOU and YOUR situation. They care about themselves and staying in power. When it is politically advantageous to them to ignore YOU they will ignore you no matter how loud you scream.

When it is politically advantageous to them to ignore YOU

Don't believe it was politically advantageous for them to support this bill. Why do you think all Republicans except for one voted against it? That was politically advantageous.

Skye: The left is so arrogant that they do not see that the majority of the country disagrees with them, and, therefore, they do not recognize that is was "not politically wise" to push this horrible bill through.

They are also so arrogant as to think that pushing thru a 1900 page bill that remains unread by most of them who voted for it, and doing so on a Saturday night, hoping that no one would really pay much attention, is all seen as callousness, and arrogance by most Americans.

Their arrogance blinds them, so the question remains "was it advantageous for them?" I guess we'll find out come election day, but they are convinced that it is a rabid red neck minority that opposes them, so they will continue to tout their triumph until the last ballot is counted, and they die an ignoble political death, wondering "why"?

The majority want a public option. Unless more than 70% is now a minority.

Many of us can't vote in the poll because the question is a setup as tied to the headline and article. Many, like myself support reform, but this bill certainly is not reform. It is FUBAR

Not to mention, they seem to be better at business when they can keep stealing and borrowing from China so YES, YES, YES!

dfiz

Were you protesting when Dubya financed two wars with supplemental budgets to be paid with interest to China? While he was on Vacation 33% of the time... At least he voiced that he wouldn't play golf which evidence shows is BS. Health Care is seriously over due and would help our country overall in business and every Americans Standard of Living.

So two wrongs make a right? I wasn't for it then or now. I am independent and non partisan. The pubs did it before and now the dems all cry and yell "they did it so its okay for us to do it". Screwed either way.

My dad used to say, "Well if timmy jumped off a bridge, would you jump to?" My answer was "no!"

Grow up!!! This childishness of thought makes me sick to my stomach.