Palin's Pastor: God Will Damn America

Maybe they shouldn't be considered "fringe" churches if so many people belong to them.

Maybe they shouldn't be considered "fringe" churches if so many people belong to them.

There's a well-established historical pattern in play here. Christianity started out as a "fringe" religion; all Protestant denominations were once "fringe" religions. ("Methodist," "Quaker" and "Shaker" were originally derogatory terms.)

As the "fringe" religions gain respectability their more radical views are either incorporated into the mainstream or, more commonly, fall out of favor. Those seekers for that old time religion either content themselves with the new reality or drift off to found another church more to their liking.

Sarah P is the poster child for the pentacostal fringe's bid to get some political clout and already they're softening their message to reflect their new political reality, viz. "These things happen" for an unplanned pregnancy that would have provoked a firestorm or condemnation had it happened to a major player on the dem side two weeks ago.

What is so many? How many is that? People join churches to pray and get "saved" The pastors go political and tell us what their congregations believe politically. Is that right?

How come so many American Protestants now belong to what were once fringe churches?

Demmy,

A powerful belief in end of times and god's imminent return, folks hedging their bets, IMO, it's the market solution to eternal salvation: these churches provide what people crave.

Extremism is extremism no matter what fraction of a population espouses it. Hundreds of millions participated in China's "cultural revolution" in the 1960s. Hitler had plenty of willing volunteers for his perverted campaigns. There are estimates that as many as 100 million in the Muslim world have views aligned with the jihadists.

Widespread fanaticism, yes. Mainstream, no.

Maybe they shouldn't be considered "fringe" churches if so many people belong to them.

The essential difference between a cult, a denomination and a sect: numbers of adherents.

"Not" getting executed, for Free Speech, does happen to be one of the most enjoyable of our rights at hand.

It will be interesting to see if the Left succeeds in tearing down Palin by painting all Pentecostal/Charismatic Christians as "extreme" or "fringe." It seems the Left risks alienating many Pentecostals or Charismatics who may be inclined to support Obama.

demmywemmy- as culture changes, churches change.
The Catholics lost the young over family, life, abortion, and the infallibility of the pope etc. (I am not an authority, you can google all of this)
Style of worship with the changes in music and the pop culture influences heavily impact the church
Just think of the Mall mentality. Fads abound. Also, the historic main line churches seem to become too secular(just think of the controversial liberal platform) for people who hold on to the basic theological tenets of literal biblical principles.
Thus you have people changing over to charismatic churches, reformed theology churches and now there is a return to orthodoxy. Apparently people still search and ask questions. There is a world wide surge in religious practice.
Some of this is uniquely western, wealthy, and a mass media phenomenon. If one is a believer in the spiritual, one might believe that there is no way to contain the spiritual, so we write about a power that humans can not direct. I say perhaps. I voted for Obama and I keep religion out of my thinking as much as possible.
Perhaps some kind of good v. evil war in the air.

TB- good point
I do not call any group fringe, as some posters do.
Extreme language can be divisive, limit conversation and demonstrate resistance to learning from other comments.

Tom B...agreed.

I have been to a few different types of charismatic churches, and none of them do what many of these posters describe. I guarantee a lot of people are going to take offense to some of this nonsense and turn the other direction.

It will be interesting to see if the Left succeeds in tearing down Palin by painting all Pentecostal/Charismatic Christians as "extreme" or "fringe." It seems the Left risks alienating many Pentecostals or Charismatics who may be inclined to support Obama.

So far the Obama campaign has been very measured in their response to Palin, probably in part out of respect for the Pentecostals/Charismatics who are on the fence. The left has fallen into a rut of painting the whole movement with a very broad brush when a closer look suggests that there are very widely divergent opinions within religious community, and that many are, in fact, quite embarrassed and fed up with televangelists and their chronic fearmongering, hypocrisy, and begging.

Though Palin has for the moment galvanized the right, as her extreme views and the scandals add up, she may well knock a lot of Pentecostals/Charismatics -- yes, there are such things -- into the Obama camp. Beyond abortion, there are vast social issues where these are more in line with the democratic view.

As a Charismatic, I am well-aware of the good and the bad (and the ugly) that inhabits the Charismatic movement of churches. Most - not all - are non-denominational and independant. Many of these churches belong to fellowships or associations that allow flexibility in doctrine and practice. So, there are all kinds of Charismatic churches and all kinds of individual Charismatic Christians. ("Charismatic" is somewhat different from "Pentecostal" in certain doctrinal and affiliation issues. Many Pentecostals belong to denominations, the largest being Assembly of God. There is often a lot of affinity between Pentecostals and Charismatics, however.)

My personal background includes Southern Baptist, Episcopalian, Catholic, and Presbyterian. Stereotyping terms like "dominionist" and "theocracy" get thrown around all too much here on Newsvine by people who do not doctrinally comprehend Christian theology or belief on issues such as "spiritual warfare" or the Kingdom of God. These terms mean something very different to believers than they do to non-believers.

The book of Ephesians, chapter 6, gives a good picture of what spiritual warfare is, and Jesus' Sermon on the Mount is the clearest teaching on what the Kingdom of God is. St. Paul said that the kingdom of God is not a matter of "pleasing the flesh," but it's "righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit."

My plea to everyone here is, don't judge Charismatics or even Fundamentalists or Evangelicals (all of these are unique and specific terms) by what you see on television. "Media Pastors" often have as much to do with regular pastors and churches as "The Sopranos" has to do with the average Italian family.

My plea to everyone here is, don't judge Charismatics or even Fundamentalists or Evangelicals (all of these are unique and specific terms) by what you see on television. "Media Pastors" often have as much to do with regular pastors and churches as "The Sopranos" has to do with the average Italian family.

Yep...very true.

There are a few pastors on television that get their sermons televised because they are good men, and good teachers, but no one ever brings them up. (of course) They just like to bring up the controversial guys, which don't represent the majority of Christians, no matter what denomination or tradition they follow...

Very True, Horrified. I should not have disparaged every single television preacher. There are some who are not only good speakers but do a lot of good charitable work.

Why do tv preachers ask for money? Often, it is to pay for the very high costs of broadcasting. They cannot have commercial sponsors like regular tv programmers or producers, and must rely on donations to pay for cameras, editing, personnel, and of course, air time.

ooops-- I meant to say "moderate Pentecostals/Charismatics" in 2.12. Yes, there are such things, as Tom explains in more detail. Particularly in the minority and urban settings, Pentecostals and Charismatics can be politically liberal.

Evangelicalism (as companion to Pentecostals/Charismatics) has its historical patterns and participants do periodically realize that saving souls is not enough -- it smacks too much of a "works-based salvation" cautioned against in Ephesians -- and that the fruits of the Spirit manifested in social action is important also. Arguably the Obama campaign can make some inroads into the white Pentecostal -Charismatic movement if he can promote his community work as having a Christian base.

Gnostix, I agree with several things you say. There is a sad disconnect in too many churches - conservative and liberal, orthodox and postmodern, black and white, urban and rural - between theology and biblical practice. Mercy and compassion are at the heart of the Gospel message and mandate to all individual believers, regardless of politics. Too many believers sit in pews and hear a stirring message, say "amen," and then somehow feel like they actually did something.

And, as a Republican, I believe that both Guiliani and Palin erred in mocking the notion of being a community organizer. While I would contend that being a community organizer is not necessarily a top-flight qualification for being President, I believe there are many noble things done by community organizers. Denigrating their work is not helpful.

Tom, I actually agree with what you said.

As a community volunteer in my town and a member of a philanthropic group, we do many things is our area. I don't do it because it is noble, (though there are a lot of noble community organizers) but, I do do it because it is the right thing to do.

DCStone, whatever disagreements we may have had, or will have, my hat's off to you for what you do ... and why you do it. Much respect.

Thank you Tom

This is why our "Founding Fathers" created a secular democracy. People's religious beliefs are not, by the design of our country, supposed to be national policy.

You are distorting the facts. Gov. Palin did not say God's "work", she said God's "plan". Christians believe the God has a plan for each of them, even prior to conception. "I knew you before I formed you in your mother's womb." Jeremiah 1:5 "For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. Jeremiah 29:11
Actually, she had me at her pledge to govern "with a servant's heart". This phrase, too, is derived from Scripture that Christians would recognize, "But the greatest among you shall be your servant." Matthew 23:11
You don't seem to be concerned that "jihad" is holy war, only that personal religious belief would somehow become a constitutional requirement. That's a big "bridge to nowhere". As to her being a died in the wool Republican -- would that not make her a perfect choice for the Republican Party. She is us!

iamright... seems you aren't so much right, as ill informed. Palin referred to the war as 'a task from God'. She called it 'God's will'. Eerily similar to a jihad, eh. Religion has no place in government. Nor does your mythical daddy in the sky.

I'm always terrified of anyone who claims they know exactly what God has in mind for them. That delusion has been used to justify more tyranny than good works. For every Mother Teresa there are plenty Savonarolas, Napoleons and Joe McCarthys just waiting to implement their interpretation of "God's will" for the rest of us.

Palin is not a buffoon candidate like Dan Quayle - she's downright frightening.

P.S. For several posters ... the terms are "archetypal" and "dyed in the wool". If you died in the wool you must have committed suicide in a sheep pen, LOL!

I very much agree Gipper.

I second that.

iamright-492840-

I know the plans I have for you

Notice how God doesn't say at that point what those planes are. In the new tesetament you are told what they are.

So where's the war part in the Bible? Point me to where Jesus says kill the innocent children? Where's the part about the daisy cutter bombs? The phosphorus munitions that burn human flesh to the bone?

Isn't there a part about not bearing false witness? About not killing? About treating your neighbor as yourself? Being your brother's keeper?

Why do you right-wing Christians only read the old testament? With it's wars and smoting and pillers of salt?

Read 1st Corinthians 13 every day. Read the Beatitudes every day. Those are the two most beautiful, peaceful parts of the bible.

Quit using the bible to justify your hate, your fears, and your violence.

Most rational people(some Christians as well), know that all humans have free choice.
The bible says God gave us free will. It doesn't say he controls everything we do or makes things happen to us.

If I cross the street and get hit by a car because I didn't look, it was my fault and a result of my choice. Religious wing nuts might say "It was part of God's plan" to make it seem more acceptable and make some sense out of it but that is a false notion.

God did not "plan" for us to invade Iraq. It was the choice of a few men in power for their own political/economical gain.

Just one more reason why religious fanatics should never be allowed to run our country.

10 votes for American Lobo!!!

This is America not the Muslim world you speak of. Here we are Free to worship.

This is America not the Muslim world you speak of. Here we are Free to worship.

Chauvinism and Hate duly noted, Beverly H.

Ire, thanks for noticing, love ya

Here we are Free to worship.

Apparently, some people forget that we're also free to not worship.

Jack, thats right you are free not to worship, thats one of the beautiful things about America FREEDOM.

Jack, thats right you are free not to worship, thats one of the beautiful things about America FREEDOM.

But don't you dare forget for one second that this is a Christian nation.

BTW,

I love you too, Beverly, I know you feel in your heart your doing the right thing.

Palin, also said she was fist in line as a reformer in Alaska, that not true either, it was already in the works, before she became governor even though she got the ball rolling. On CNN it was revealed Palin's techniques for governing is more about style than substance. That Palin will move mountains if a person crosses her and will feel her wrath. So I'll pass on Palin for VP another Bush and McCain we don't need.

lady- and that's bad because........?

I don't understand how anyone can believe in a master plan of a supreme being. If that is true, then we are all just puppets on a stage with our actions and thoughts predetermined before we were ever born. It is impossible for us to be beings of free will and have a supreme being with a plan for each of us. Our lives are intertwined to such a degree that this idea is completely untenable. If I spend an extra 15 seconds brushing my teeth tomorrow it could result in my having a car accident on the way into work that kills either myself or another individual. Random events can have a huge impact on the world around us - and if there are no random events then we have no control over anything.

If god has a plan and I have free will then he must be performing miracles on a regular basis to compensate for the uncertainty in my free will. The problem is I don't see any of these miracles. They don't happen.

If god has a plan and I have free will then he must be performing miracles on a regular basis to compensate for the uncertainty in my free will.

Mike, interesting and could go a long way toward explaining why god is so wrathful, working overtime for every one of us. I think it'd be enough to piss off any deity.

Palin didn't say the war WAS God's will, she said she wanted people to pray that God's will would be done with regards to the war...BIG difference.

When a Christian asks in prayer that God's will be done, it's simply acknowledging that even though we may have an opinion, and we may even have a plan, that it might not be the right opinion or plan no matter how much we think it is, and that ultimately God knows best. It's basically like saying "Guide us so we don't mess up and make the wrong move. If we make the right decision, bless it. If we make the wrong one, show us what we are doing wrong, and don't let the mistake cause any harm." Or in shorter terms, "I hope we do the right thing and don't screw it up..."

Quoting someone usually involves using a whole sentence, and not just two or three words, otherwise we'd all be in trouble pretty often...not to mention very, very confused...

Absolutely right, Horrified. Well-said. There is big difference in asking God's will be done versus declaring that something is already definitively God's will.

Maybe the Salem witch trials will be followed by the Wasilla book burnings. (See Hitler, A. and Goebbels, J.)

Sorry, but both of those comments amount to little more than hysteria or inaccurate bumper sticker cliches. Comparing Palin to Hitler is so extreme, it just ruins your credibility.

Also, stringing together terms like "Calvinist" and "Pentecostal" is a misnomer. While there are a few Calvinists who may be open to certain Pentecostal practices, typically there are major doctrinal and ecclesialogical differences between the two poles.

The point here is that religious and political revisionism should be put in its place, the churches of those individuals that prescribe to those various ethos, not in the White House, not in the Supreme Court, not in the Government as prescribed by the founders in print ad nausea.
Unfortunately in this instance it would appear Mr Tom that simply by the nature of the vote system, this comment is vastly more upheld than your weak nit-picking and non-deconstruction of the central logic of the comment, we have been there, we done that and it was 400 years ago...And it is highly documented that this type of theocracy was in place in the MBC, and it failed.

Analog, I want to respond to you, but honestly, I'm having a hard time knowing what it is you are trying to say. Can you please clarify?

Oh, and by the way, there was not only no Wasilla "book burning" or even "book banning," but there was no attempt. Just another lie about Palin, folks:

Sliming Palin: Blogosphere Runs Amok

Top 7 Myths, Lies, and Untruths About Sarah Palin

Thats true, and we would give whoever is in office in the meantime a he$$ of a lot of criticisms. This sets up the GOP to use her and another as the 'ticket' in 2012. So even if she doesn't win now, she may in the future. Now that is a scary thought.

Has Hillary chimed in about her? Now that would be a great debate.

MAX3PO: You certainly have, in my humble opinion, a valid possibility there!!!!! Hadn't considered that possibility. To have the opinions and thoughts of other people is a great thing - I learn something from nearly every post!!! Thank you!!

I think the split is primarily manufactured.

Since we are a society that likes "the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat" it's being presented to us as "the big game" and it's close, folks, right down to the wire!

I don't buy it, either.

Nor do I.

well at the risk of finding tin foil hat friends

could it be possible that they are keeping it artificially close, is so that when they "fix" the machines and steal the election fewer people will argue with the results?

hard to,

"could it be possible that they are keeping it artificially close, is so that when they "fix" the machines and steal the election fewer people will argue with the results?"

Interesting angle...kind of like they did the last 2 times?

;)

Michael Moore doesn't buy it either. For basically your same reasons.

I don't buy polls either.

You really don't understand why the election is so close? LOL

I understand, and it saddens me. It's the same reason that rural america continued to keep Jesse Helms -- a known racist misogynistic homophobic fear-mongerer -- in office: ignorance and xenophobia.

And don't kid yourselves either. Though America was founded on Christian tenets, it was also founded and supported by deaths, persecution, and exploitation of those who were weaker than the majority in power. That has not changed either.

Interesting dichomotomy, innit?

Don't you mean the minority in power?

hard to argue with that and Ire:

'could it be possible that they are keeping it artificially close, is so that when they "fix" the machines and steal the election fewer people will argue with the results?'

"Interesting angle...kind of like they did the last 2 times?"

Actually? I'm worried about that too. The only thing that gives me hope is that during the 2006 elections, the DNC put up a website for ordinary people to upload and submit any film of any possibly illegal activities that they caught at the pols with their cell phones. The promise was that they were going to spend the next several years tracking down each and every single claim and try to fix it. While I DON'T know about any of the other areas, my county is one of the ones where one of those promised "follow throughs" is still occurring.

I also don't know how successful they've been at cleaning things up but, frankly? At this point, I think they've done all they could for now.

Here's to hoping it was enough:)

Sure - you know how Diebold has fixed the problems with their electronic voting machines? They changed the name of the COMPANY. It is now Premier Election Solutions. That is supposed to lull everyone into thinking things are ok, because you know we are just brain dead.

ritgar,

Thanks for the heads' up, I didn't know that. In fact I just went to check their homepage at: www.premierelections.com/

And found I needed a password to sign in. Why all the secrecy with these guys? Is it because they promised to help the Pubs at the last go 'round?

I'm wondering if their Motto is:

"When you need a final solution, you need Premier Election Solutions"

I have ALWAYS believed churches, that is their income and ANY real estate they own, should be TAXED at the same rate the rest of us are. A non believer should not have to pay, in ANY way, for my belief. All the ranting and raving here does nothing to help this country as we are divided enough as it is. In our small town, there are two medical associations - that is hospitals and doctor's clinics. BOTH of them are Nonprofit as set up by lawyers. Go figure??? They rate right up there with churches. I DO go to church and have for years, BUT I do not believe they should be tax exempt and the doctors either.
I will NOT vote this year. Too many lies and rumors to get to the bottom of anything. Smoke screens up in abundance as usual. I am personally "afraid" of both parties and their BS - they are too much the same. What 2 party system?? Liars, thieves, and perverts.

I guess that we should take comfort in the possibility that Barak Obama could be president?
As far as America doing kooky things, I agree. Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton come to mind immediately.

Me too!

No #$#$, good call charles!

A wise man once said, "the truth is abhorred by the masses" It's so true. The problem with the taliban is their religion is wrong! Jesus said "nobody comes to the father except through me". You don't have to believed that. It's your choice. I happen to believe it and believing so renders all other religions wrong in my opinion. It may not be politically correct but I hope that liberals who so furiously defend free speech will agree that I have the right to believe what I wish and to state so. The passion with which some of you respond to my post tells me that you are only trying to convince yourself that you're outrageous interpretation of the Bible is correct. If you are trying to convince me don't waste your time.

The problem with the taliban is their religion is wrong!

Taliban is fundamentalist so I agree with you on that front. However, I'm thinking you are saying any religion that does not accept Jesus Christ is wrong. In which case, you are wrong.

The problem with the taliban is their religion is wrong!

Your religion is wrong as well. It's a tie.

It may not be politically correct but I hope that liberals who so furiously defend free speech will agree that I have the right to believe what I wish and to state so.

Oh darn, all those liberals who hate Christians. Yeah, there can't possibly be any overlap.

Get off your high horse. You can blather all you want (though free speech doesn't apply in this privately owned forum), but you have no right to general agreement.

The passion with which some of you respond to my post tells me that you are only trying to convince yourself that you're outrageous interpretation of the Bible is correct.

Every interpretation of the Bible is "correct," and thus, none are.

Every interpretation of the Bible is "correct," and thus, none are.

DING! DING! DING! WE HAVE A WINNAH!!!!!1

Jack, in 2008, are Conservative Christians doing the same things as the Taliban? If not, then is it really a "tie"?

You are under the impression that the majority of Christians are arguing about which version of the Bible is true. Quite the contrary ... most versions of the Bible used in Protestant Churches are virtually identical in message (with a few differences perhaps in wording - rarely in meaning). In our church, people walk in with New International Version Bibles, New King James, New American Standard, The Message, King James, and a host of others. Granted, the Catholic Bible also includes Apocryphal Books, which are not treated with the same weight as the official canon.

But, the mainstream of Christianity - spanning all the way from Roman Catholicism to Southern Baptists to United Pentecostals to Church of God in Christ to Assemblies of God to Reformed Presbyterians - all agree on more than 90% of the doctrinal fundamentals. Too bad the other 10% and also human pride have caused so much division over so little.

Tom,

are Conservative Christians doing the same things as the Taliban?

To be fair, I think even the Taliban weren't doing the same things as the Taliban until they got entrenched into power.

Jack, in 2008, are Conservative Christians doing the same things as the Taliban? If not, then is it really a "tie"?

In terms of veracity? Yes, they're tied. JRR3 is talking about veracity, as evidenced by his "I happen to believe it and believing so renders all other religions wrong in my opinion" statement.

There may not be explicit, widespread firestorms of bickering about which rendition of the Bible is the real one, but there are religion-based moral and ideological differences between Christian sects -- differences in what they do in the name of God.

But Jack, do mainstream Baptists, Catholics, Pentecostals, and Presbyterians disagree about blowing up markets, killing innocent civilians, creating a theocracy, abusing women, refusing education to the citizenry, and the like? Of course not.

In fact, no mainstream Christian group believes that bombing abortion clinics or shooting abortion doctors or seducing 12 year old kids or stealing money or taking meth or whatever else some Christians have done is OK. We still call those things sin, and condemn the actions of those who do it ... even they are other Christians.

Even the late Dr. D. James Kennedy, a well-known Presbyterian theologian, author, and pastor, who was accused of being a "theocon" was explicitly and stidently against trying to create a theocracy. So much of Christian teaching on what the kingdom of God is, or what spiritual warfare/spiritual weapons are is terribly misunderstood by non-believers.

Those who founded the nation - who had a profound respect for Judeo-Christian values - were adamant that we should have freedom to practice faith ... or not practice it. Their wisdom proceeded out of their own faith and experience. The societies in the world today that were shaped by Judeo-Christian values tend to be the ones that are the most open and tolerant.

Again, I'm not talking about moral judgments of "Are these religions entirely morally depraved?" As I said above, I'm talking about "wrong" as in "incorrect" in a factual or self-consistent sense. I'm saying that Christian sects disagree about their ideologies. And actually, regarding abusing women, Christians definitely disagree about women's rights issues (e.g. abortion). ;-)

And again, may I remind you that Judaism and Christianity didn't invent "Judeo-Christian values." There is nothing in the not-explicitly-religious aspects of "Judeo-Christian values" that was not derived from the Golden Rule of the Greeks, conceived at least 600 years before Christ.

Last time I checked, Judaism was also around many centuries before Christ, and provided the "seed bed" which nurtured Jesus and His followers.

True, Christians do often disagree among themselves. Some of the worst fights in recent years have been about the color of the carpet in a church. Church fights and splits do happen too often.

There was a man who was marooned alone on a deserted island for many years. When a rescue boat finally arrived, the captain noted that there were three buildings on the island. He asked the castaway, "What's the building on the left?" The castaway said, "That's my house." The captain said, "And what's the building in the center?" The castaway said, "That's my church." Then the captain asked, "What about the third building?" The castaway looked mad. "That's where I used to go to church."

Anyway, while some personality and peripheral issues do divide Christians, on the main tenets of faith, there is strong commonality.

As far as abuse of women ... well, to me, abortion is abuse against a woman and her child ... but we've had that debate once or twice, haven't we? ;-)

I am happy to compare the way that women in 2008 are treated by Christianity versus how they are treated in other religions.

Anyway, while some personality and peripheral issues do divide Christians, on the main tenets of faith, there is strong commonality.

Yes, you all derive some sort of authority from the Bible, and believe in the divinity of Christ... most of you, anyway. The Mormons are a funny lot.

As far as abuse of women ... well, to me, abortion is abuse against a woman and her child ... but we've had that debate once or twice, haven't we? ;-)

Heh, abuse requires lack of consent. That's really all I need to say regarding any contention of abortion being abuse of the woman. We've been around the personhood debate, regarding the embryo/fetus, many times indeed.

I am happy to compare the way that women in 2008 are treated by Christianity versus how they are treated in other religions.

Heh, which sect of Christianity? ;-)

The mainstream orthodox denominations: Catholic, Baptist, Assembly of God, Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, Anglican, Lutheran, Disciples of Christ (Christian Church), Church of God, Church of God in Christ, United Pentecostal, African Methodist Episcopal Zion, and most independant mega-churches.

Oh well, I sat here and typed a long "essay" about "religion" and abortions. After reading it over again, I decided I was wasting my breath.

FYI Jack: Two of my longhorn cows had beautiful new babies this AM - refreshing.
This whole discussion is a joke and you and I know that. My best to you.

ANU,

Religion is a moral compass not an absolute.

You are spot on. The absolute (fundamental) outlook is regressive and promotes a regressive society.

I recalled someone saying that Muhammed talked of 2 Jihads, and inner and an outer and that when the inner (the most imprtant) fails the outer (the degraded form) appears. I'll have to try to find the reference.

Meanwhile I pulled this from Wiki:

The four major categories of jihad that are recognized are Jihad against one's own self (Jihad al-Nafs), Jihad of the tongue (Jihad al-lisan), Jihad of the hand (Jihad al-yad), and Jihad of the sword (Jihad as-sayf).Islamic jurisprudence focuses on regulating the conditions and practice of Jihad as-sayf, the only form of warfare permissible under Islamic law, and thus the term Jihad is usually used in fiqh manuals in reference to military combat.

eh.......if America was a world leader, If they ever really were, still doesn't change the fact that Palin and friends mean: Not to stop the machine. Biden seems just an older Player in the "machine" too. Still Palen is a bad choice for McCain.

There are many reason why our forefather's thought it was in our best interest to separate church and state. We as Americans represent a melting pot of many beliefs and I feel it is not representing the best interests of us a society to thrust someone into a position of power that can make such statement. Theologians have debated religions for centuries, so one might ask, whose God is she referring to? Hers? Her pastor's? Her neighbor"s? In any case it is not the God of all Americans..........So such statements are ludicrous and represent an uneducated elitist view of America and it's people. Beliefs and religion in a government should act as a guide in our leader's choices,but not be the focus. If they claim to represent the people they should represent all people. Religion has been used as the justification of many wars, some of them history refers to as being right , some wrong, it depends on the author. Even within Christianity there are several interpretations from right to left and the Bible can be used to justify each view, but ultimately there is one judge and that is your God whatever it might be, and one known guide your conscious.

Unfortunately, Democrats have too many scruples. That's why the Republicans treat us like we are weak. That's also why they attack us or assassinate us when we get too close to winning. We are beneath their contempt.

Yeah, not freedom from religion, so...you would still insist on preaching to me if I (using my rights) request you to leave me alone and not speak to me of it?

Separation of church and state? Remember that famous edict from Thomas Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists? Believe it or not, there are people who are not Christian, and believe that Government should operate completely separate of any deity. BTW.. I know you're a newbie, but please reply using the little reply link instead of posting a separate thread. I don't feel like hopping all over creation to find your responses.

Sorry about that, but did you notice that the little reply link sometimes disappears? Bummer, what to do!?

It doesn't disappear, it may be at the bottom of a long list of replies to a comment.

If you don't see one, scroll down.

You can also tell by looking at the number in the lower left corner of your reply box or the previous box.

if it is a whole numer 2, 3, 4, 5, etc...are 'comments'

2.1, 2.2, 2.3, 2.4, would be 'replies' to comment #2.

IAMRIGHT, you are right.

If it actually disappears. Refresh the page.

You don't seem to be concerned that "jihad" is holy war, only that personal religious belief would somehow become a constitutional requirement."

I am concerned that people use religion to push their ideology. That is what the terrorists use to get young kids to blow themselves up and that is what the self righteous Right does to promote their views. There is nothing in the Bible about abortion. The radical Right of the Republican party is not pro-life; they are all for the death penalty!!! They care more for the unborn than for the millions of American children living in poverty or in foster care systems that can't keep track of them. If I saw a movement from the Right wing on these issues, they would have some credibility. It is up to the Dems to care for the poor and downtrodden - which is a Christian principal Jesus practiced.
No government has been able to control a persons personal religious belief so I am not concerned about any constitutional requirement. However, God is so often misrepresented and used and that does concern me!!!! I can not speak for God but I doubt He'd be about the hate-mongering.

dcstone01: I WOULD NEVER attempt to speak to you about "religion" if you did not want to hear. In fact, I do NOT speak of it unless I am asked. I do not believe it is my place to tell others what to believe or not to believe. I am glad every one in this world is NOT like me - it would be a boring place to be. The "differences" are a true delight, whether I agree or not is quite beside the point!!!

My Father told me once: "The only way the American Government is going to change it's pace in governing it's people. Is when they are hungry 'and cold or wet from not having a roof over their head.

Thanks oldfarmer, I do not either speak of religion first either, I let others go first. And yes, it would be a very boring place if everyone was the same. Celebrate the differences is my favorite saying.

randalratliff,

My Father told me once: "The only way the American Government is going to change it's pace in governing it's people. Is when they are hungry 'and cold or wet from not having a roof over their head.

Good one, and true.

Ire:

Your father was a very wise man. We need many, many more just like him in this world. It is my sincere hope he is still living today. Thank you for posting his wisdom.

oldfarmer2008,

That was randallratliff's father, and I agree with you, he sounds like he was good man.

My apologies please - that is what happens when an old man has to scroll down a mite - fergit who said it, but didn't forget what was said!! My respects to randallratliff's father for a very wise and timely statement.

I keep trying to say that, but......

The "truth" to a Muslim is that Allah is the Almighty Creator and Sustainer of the universe, and Muhammed is his prophet. The "truth" to a Jew is that there is a single God who not only created the universe, but with whom every Jew can have an individual and personal relationship. The "truth" to a Christian is that there is a triune God, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, and that salvation comes by faith. The many translations (versions) of the Bible do not altar the meaning, only change the wording. I speak only of the three mainstream religions; there are many others. Of the major three religions, to my best knowledge and belief, Islam is the only one that imposes the duty of destruction of non-believers. The point is that one's religion is one of the many influences in the formation of one's character, and guide of one's behavior.

IAM,

"Of the major three religions, to my best knowledge and belief, Islam is the only one that imposes the duty of destruction of non-believers"

And:
"Wouldn't it be a treat is you were to cite the sources of your "facts", so that we might verify them. Without the verifiable references you have disclosed only gossip, innuendo and wishful thinking, but not truth. "

The "truth" to a Muslim is that Allah is the Almighty Creator and Sustainer of the universe, and Muhammed is his prophet. The "truth" to a Jew is that there is a single God who not only created the universe, but with whom every Jew can have an individual and personal relationship. The "truth" to a Christian is that there is a triune God, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, and that salvation comes by faith. The many translations (versions) of the Bible do not altar the meaning, only change the wording. I speak only of the three mainstream religions; there are many others. Of the major three religions, to my best knowledge and belief, Islam is the only one that imposes the duty of destruction of non-believers. The point is that one's religion is one of the many influences in the formation of one's character, and guide of one's behavior.

Muhammad is the last prophet of Islam. Jesus, Moses & Abraham are also prophets in Islam.

The "truth" to a Christian is that there is a triune God, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, and that salvation comes by faith

Not all Christians, by any stretch of the imagination, believe in the self-equivalent Holy Trinity.

The many translations (versions) of the Bible do not altar the meaning, only change the wording.

And the meaning means different things to different people. Thus, the highly sectarian nature of Christendom.

JH that is true

Wouldn't it be a treat is you were to cite the sources of your "facts", so that we might verify them. Without the verifiable references you have disclosed only gossip, innuendo and wishful thinking, but not truth.

dcstone...interesting.. don't think you are being paranoid, certainly not if the republicans are behind all of these deceptions; mass weapons of destruction, guns, guns, guns, war, war., pow pow pow mccain. It's very scary that palin and chaney/mcbush and the Oil boys are so close...but the media can't ask her questions? but let's say ok to her fanatical views: do as I say, not as I do. there are 59 days left so we better get the facts. I don't want the American People to be hoodwinked again...

vote Obama/Biden

DC, sounds like your a little paranoid...Calm down...Everything will turn out the way its meant to turn out.

VOTE: McCain/Palin

Everything will turn out the way its meant to turn out.

VOTE: McCain/Palin

Hahaha, if everything will inevitably turn out the way it's meant to turn out, it's kinda silly of you to think that voting McCain-Palin will change anything.

I'd hate to think that your fatalism is empty fluff.

Yeah, just wait another seven years, or so. Just like all of those rumors about Plame and Rove and Libby and Abramoff and Kenneth Lay were "paranoid rumors." Seven years later, it's too late.

And, now, the same idiots who were saying that all of those rumors were false are doing the same thing with the current contenders' rumors.

This is hysterical, You crazy Left-wing nuts...gee maybe Todd Palin is a spy or something, sitting in on meetings, maybe the baby is too, I hear she breast feeds in the office.

Palin sounds more and more like Bush- under qualified and cries foul if anyone wants to engage her on her views.

McCain sounds like Cheney- war,war,war and kill,kill,kill!!!

Country First- what a joke from the 72y/o candidate who picked a radical VP and won't let her be questioned w/o inciting media bias. Stand up and take it like a man McCain!!!!!!!

The only thing that will change with Palin/McCain is the policies put forth in the campaign.

Hopefully, there's not going to be such irreversible issues with Obama.

Hi Beverly,

I don't know you, so I am not going to assume.

Buy when we "crazy left-wingnuts" were jumping up and down in the air until our faces turned blue while screaming "THERE WERE NO WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION! THE GOVERNMENT IS NOT TELLING US THE TRUTH", a lot of people were calling us "paranoid crazy unpatriotic left wingnuts?"

(Were you one of them?)

Anyway, we were right. And, we're right again.

AI 616,

Ba-Zing!

Al...Did you hear the surge is working and our troops are coming home in about 9 months, how great is that?
are you one of those left-wing nuts that would rather be defeated or stand proud. Can you say "the surged worked and McCain was right?" I know you can.

Beverly H, I'll agree the surge is working but I would like to add that since the surge began we have also taken out a number of high ranking insurgents by way of the one shot one kill snipers bullet, when you do that and take their leaders out the followers retreat this is something that could have been achieved before the surge, and I speak from experience.

are you one of those left-wing nuts that would rather be defeated or stand proud. Can you say "the surged worked and McCain was right?"

And the good news is it only cost us...what? Over a trillion borrowed dollars?

And the bad news is what? 4152 US Dead, many more wounded, many more traumatized for life, broken homes, shattered lives.

I'm sure there are mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, sons and daughter right now whispering at the grave or bedside of a loved one "McCain was right, stand proud". Because it's always better for someone to have a dead hero in their family as opposed to someone they can talk to, laugh with and love.

"McCain was right, the surge worked, stand proud." Yeah, tell you what: go to every family in this country who has lost someone in that illegal operation and gauge the response to your gloating; please, don't throw that unholy pile of S*%^ in my face or anyone else's until you've done just that.

Two points,

1. the military leaders said that it was not the 'surge' alone that helped, it was the awakening mixed with it. This from the boots on the ground.

2. I will not vote for McCain. Don't know who yet, but he is not getting my vote that is a certainity.

No! That is the sentiment of Mahmoud Ahmahdinejad, The President of the Islamic Republic of Iran. He tends to say it a lot, and includes America along with Israel.

I stand corrected. It was a guest speaker at their church and he mentioned jews being killed as justice.

CNN - now that's a reliable source. They are so in love with the big O they can't keep their hands out of their pants at the mention of his name. Add ABC, ABCNN, NBC, MSNBC and CBS to the list of mainstream media so in the tank with The One they no longer issue news, only propaganda. They've become like hyenas at the kill, devouring the prey.

dcstone01 - re: #17 Your CNN site is a copy of a post on Newsvine of a blog Quixote Don referencing allegations of Andrew Halcro, a political opponent of Governor Palin. He alleges she authorized copies of e-mails she received regarding Halcro to be sent to her husband. This is not exactly red meat. What exactly did you "put together" to come up with your conclusion? Newsvine - SECURITY ALERT! Palin's Husband Was Given Access To ... Sep 3, 2008 ... Within this article, you will read about proof that Palin's husband, Todd, was granted access to confidential state government e-mails...

The ability to post the actual cites is denied, but you can get to them by Googling search on the CNN web page (cnn- - -.com- - -/search, leave out the ---) Go to "Newsvine - SECURITY ALERT!"

The point is and you will see he is listed there as one of the people on her 'forward', that he is NOT a government employee and should not be receiving ANY governmental paperwork.
Don't you get the problem with that?

but of course if your suggesting CNN the unbiased journalism network ,we should all believe it..LOL

On another note, the Muslim world is also hoping Obama wins this election. Hmmm...wonder what that's all about

Oh man, a leader of the world's foremost superpower not thinking that he's on a missions ordained by God? Yeah, I wonder why that would make Muslims less nervous.

They are just waiting for the man who wants to just use diplomacy vs the MAN who will actually do something about it.

Yep, Bush skipped that pesky diplomacy gig, too. "Mission Accomplished" in Iraq, right?

Too bad the idiot Clinton shut down most of our vital military bases damaging our security as well as putting thousands of people out of work.

The same idiot Clinton who explicitly warned Bush about Osama bin Laden when he took office? Right, that idiot.

It's one thing sitting in a church that preaches God's will/plan or whatever versus one that preaches hatred for white people and America.

When that plan is a war. I find it not to be God's will. But a plan of man.

On another note, the Muslim world is also hoping Obama wins this election. Hmmm...wonder what that's all about. I have no doubt we will be hit hard soon after the election across the country. They are just waiting for the man who wants to just use diplomacy vs the MAN who will actually do something about it

Possibly that Obama is for diplomacy first. Not all Muslims are terrorist. People seem to forget this, we have a lot of brothers & sisters in the middle east who do want freedom.

This idea of Republicans being protectors is ridiculous. W didn't get Osama.

Thank You sl... You hit it square on. This is just another example of Unbiased media.

Too bad the idiot Clinton shut down most of our vital military bases damaging our security as well as putting thousands of people out of work.

I was in the Army from 1984-1994. I was a recruiter for the last 3 years.

Clinton was not the one who closed the bases. It started with old Ronnie.

He started the closing list and it continued for years. We didn't need them all since the wall came down. It was also part of an agreement between us and Russia.

I saw my misson go from 10 enlistments per month down to 3 per month. This was a direct result of downsizing that was started with Bush I.

I was a victim of downsizing. I had knee surgery for an injury sustained during combat duty. (Gulf War) Two days after surgery, I was schedualed for PT. Since I could not run, I received a medical discharge. I did PT 6 weeks after my procedure, and passed everything, and had enough time to spare after the run, to go two blocks and get a gatorade and make it back before my time was up. But still, 5 months after my PT, I was discharged, with 10% disablility, no benefits allowed, and permanently disqualified (PDQ)

Funny that in 2002, I was contacted and offered a $75,000 re-enlistment bonus and my medical discharge was to be "corrected" so I could come back. Also, the offered to change my disability to 75% with benefits after I served my 4 year hitch. In 2004, the increased my bonus to $150,000 for only doing 3 years.

Do you think I would have been stop-lossed?

Enough of the threadjack.

I don't think either ticket has what it takes. I just have to decide who will do the least amount of damage. My money is starting to be slid to Obama. Someone has to clean up the mess we have now, and it will take more than 4 years. McCain, IMO, will just make matters worse.

Let's just hope I am right.

cranky-
Whoa, this rings distressingly true. The military, regardless of its commander-in-chief, is driven by funding directives enacted by congress and pursued by the Pentagon. As a result, we are to often caught in this bizarre "draw down", "build up" cycle that has no connection with the real world. I have no answers for you- but I myself am leaning toward McCain, if only because I think he has a clearer picture of this process. Just me, though.

crankyoldman:

This old man wants to thank you for serving this country. You have EVERY right to be "cranky". I have relatives in their graves as as result of their service. In spite of serious injury, I am very happy you are alive and can shed some light on the truth for every one.

Our military has always done the fighting wherever the government decides to pounce.
I think all government officials should have to fight in every "war" they instigate or is instigated by another country. This would help them all understand what "wars" really are.
It seems to be too easy for the folks in Washington to sit in comfort and "decide" what our military should and should not do - I will not go into how our vets are treated as my anger rules my thoughts on that subject. I was not physically fit to serve - tried though.

Thank you again for your service, and the first hand information you have provided for every one here.

thanks iam,

I'll dig through them shortly.

paradise where 72 virgins will be

This is what I don't understand. Speaking for myself, I'd prefer some experience in the mix...

"These extreme fundamentalist Christian views are no different than the extreme fundamentalist views of Islam. . ." Actually they are, Muslims believe they earn paradise through deeds and have no knowledge of how many deeds are required. Christians believe that eternal life in heaven has been earned for them by faith through Jesus' death on the cross.

"These extreme fundamentalist Christian views are no different than the extreme fundamentalist views of Islam. . ." Actually they are, Muslims believe they earn paradise through deeds and have no knowledge of how many deeds are required. Christians believe that eternal life in heaven has been earned for them by faith through Jesus' death on the cross.

When they both kill people, they are evil. Different sorts of evil, but close.

iamrighrt-492840 - Interesting handle.

These kinds of extreme views can be parsed out a million ways by their disciples and followers - knowlege vs belief vs superstition - no matter. Each giving their own positive spin for their position and a negative spin for the other guys view - to the rest of us, it doesn't change a thing. For all intents and purposes, their goals are the same - imposition of their extreme views on the rest of society based on what they have somehow decided is the word of God, Yahweh, Allah, Buddha, Krishna, etc. and that their interpretation of that Word is the correct one.

greengal:
I would be the first to agree with you - no one has any right to foist their "interpretation" of any "God" upon others. I do NOT discuss my religious beliefs with any one. There is enough information available to all who can read for people to make their own decisions.
God gives us free will and a brain. I truly believe every person should have the privilege of making their choices without being made fun of, or criticized. I have already posted here my total support of complete separation of church and state. Tax church income and real estate along with every one else. I do attend church, but I do NOT agree with all the practices nor every interpretation of the Bible just because a minister says so. I try desperately to avoid "superstition" at all costs. Thank you for your post - it was brief and to the (correct) point.

I am sick and tired of having religion front and center in politics, all fanatics are bad I am a middle ground person, I respect your faith but don't want it pushed on me.
I was raised catholic, let us not forget the Crusades.
I really don't like extremes, religion is a private matter, that's between me and my God
has nothing to do with my politics.
Are we going to fight the same battles from centuries ago, we are in the 21st Century
As far a Sarah goes, she gave a good speech hit all the points the right wanted her to, but from the first time I heard of her she is not ready for this job

oldfarmer, Linda-279773 & others who have expressed tolerance for other views. Thank you!

I try to respect the religious views of others whether I agree or not as long as those who espouse such beliefs 'walk the walk, as well as, talk the talk' and show the same respect for my views and those of others who are sincere in their beliefs.

I am getting just a little bit impatient with those who tell me that I am 'going to hell'; that I am 'less moral': that I am 'less ethical'; and that I am 'less worthy' because I don't accept their version of Christianity.

I, too, am tired about hearing politicians expound on God - if they want to preach, let them become priests, ministers, pasters rabbis imans etc. I want people who are dedicated to the public good and who can govern effectively, not those inspired by any one narrow religious ideology.

I agree 100%. Religious views should be kept out of politics.

greengal:

"I am getting just a little bit impatient with those who tell me that I am 'going to hell'; that I am 'less moral': that I am 'less ethical'; and that I am 'less worthy' because I don't accept their version of Christianity"

Dear Girl - anyone who tells you these things are NOT MY version of Christians. No one died and left them Judge. Just the opinion of one old man - has always been my opinion.

Oldfarmer - Yes, I know some very devout people who are what I call 'real' Christians who do everything possible to live by their faith and grant the same to others.

I hope I didn't sound like I was feeling bad about experiencing these kinds of less than Christian attitudes? The 'little bit impatient' phrase was just my attempt to keep things civil. While not always successful, I do try to keep from participating in the same kind of hate that I find so objectionable. I will not allow these kind of people to define or describe me.

Unfortunately, it's difficult to keep religious doctrine out of politics. Even though it seems a no-brainer, people believe that

"Thou Shalt Not Kill" and "Thou Shalt Not Steal" are viewed by many Americans as religious proscribed doctrine rather than a universally accepted tenet of respect for each other as human beings.

The religious right cannot seem to separate these human credos from religious ideals, even though these ideals show up in non-Western religious teachings.

What gets weird is that the top ten rules go out the window when the "Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery" pops up. Americans are very fond of ignoring that one. Someone should do a study.

Al616 - Good points. I try to live by the Golden Rule which, with slight phrasing differences, exists in almost all religions and teachings throughout the world in almost all cultures. It is a universal position.

Jen, I respect your sincerity and that the fact that you feel Obama is the right person for the job. I really do not need to repent because I have different feelings and thoughts about this election. It is wonderful we live in a country that allows us the freedom to talk and discuss. I am a proud American who actually does more then just talk. As I stated in an earlier comment, if people truely want change in this country then they need to get up off their kesters and do something about it. I think one thing that we can all agree is that we have an American Congress that does nothing, we need to clean house and get people who are ready to listen rather than stand only on their personal agenda. One of the problems congress has is if any of them try to actually get something done by working with the other side their own party is ready to excommunicate them from the party...its ridiculous to think any President can get anything done if we don't do something about our congress, and its not about the sitting president (I Don't mean just Bush) I mean any sitting President, clinton, bush, reagan, any of them. If congress don't work the whole gov. breaks down.

greengal: "I hope I didn't sound like I was feeling bad about experiencing these kinds of less than Christian attitudes? The 'little bit impatient' phrase was just my attempt to keep things civil. While not always successful, I do try to keep from participating in the same kind of hate that I find so objectionable. I will not allow these kind of people to define or describe me."

Child your comment was JUST FINE. I am proud you do NOT allow the wrong kind of people to define or describe you - always keep that disposition, and this world will not be nearly as difficult for you. I subscribe to the exact same philosophy and have for many years. It has served me well and it will you also. Keep on keeping on!!!

Beverly H-

I almost missed your response. The sentence you refer to that I wrote said:

If you are not of the faith you will not understand this necessarily, but if you are, you need to repent.

I stand by the statement. I would not need to explain this to a person of my faith. If you were of my faith, you would not be bringing this up. Clearly, we are not of the same faith.

As for the rest of you comments:

I agree you are free to write whatever you choose just as readers are free to read and place value on your contribution and your intelligence on the subject matter. What always interest me is who bothers to source their information and who does not. It's just something that I find most of us left-wingers like to do as it gives credibility to information. Most right-wingers who post don't like sources. My guess is because it most often proves them liars. Therefore, they like to try to pass along opinions as facts when in actuality it is fiction.

In reading your postings, for example, it was easy to determine that you were not well informed about Rev. Wright or if you were informed, you preferred to pass along lies and innuendos. Either way, the information you gave was inaccurate. When I read the sarcasm and/or criticisms you had for opposing viewers, it spoke volumes to your character.

Lastly, I disagree with you when you say:

...it's ridiculous to think any President can get anything done if we don't do something about our congress,

Along with the fact that I am not that cynical, people are not monolithic, either. If we are blessed with a President Obama, he has already stated how we would worked across the aisle in detail on his website. He has said this throughout his candidacy and not when he saw a drop in the polls right before the convention as McCain did. So, we need not worry about whose on which side of the aisle, as we will know for ourselves what they all are saying, with a President Obama. I found nothing on Sen. McCain's website on this issue.

Feel free to post McCain's vision for working together if it goes beyond rhetoric.
By the way, our fear is not of who Sarah is but who she is not. She is not Presidential material and to suggest it is a mockery to our process. Line her credentials up with any other Governor and/or McCain's challengers and she will pale. Yet she is possibly second in line. The fear is that McCain and your party has deemed it fit to corrupt our system. This is not a game people lives depend on Presidential decisions and your party is playing games as if the citizens do not matter. I don't think you will win, but it does not change what you are willing to do, how little you value this country. McCain says he would rather lose an election than a war, but it appears he would rather sell out his country than lose an election. You know I just realized he has sold out before!

Jen, you are free to see it as you like, as I am also... My views are clearly different from yours, I repeat that is what makes America great, you are free to speak and so am I. You are free to vote and so I am. As far as Rev. Wright, he is free to say what ever he wants as well, its just shameful his bitter veiws are directed at the land that has given him so much. Obama is free to worship where he likes and associate with whom he chooses, but remember that birds of a feather flock together.

Jen- I stand up, and encourage everyone to do the same, and give you a yahoo and thundering claps and foot stomps.....I wish I could have voted more than once....

Beverly why don't you actually read the sermon in question, heck any of his through his whole career, and come back to us with your response.

but remember that birds of a feather flock together.

Ah, so you're similarly bothered by McCain's relationship to Hagee?

McCain has no relationship to Hagee. Hagee publicly supported McCain, and then made negative comments about Catholics. When McCain found out about said comments, he informed the public that he rejected Hagee's views on the matter. McCain even sent some of his kids to Catholic school if I'm not mistaken.

McCain never went to Hagee's church, and to the best of my knowledge, never even really knew Hagee to begin with. Just because John Hagee supported McCain, doesn't mean McCain supports Hagee, or his opinions.

Beverly H

My views are clearly different from yours, I repeat that is what makes America great, you are free to speak and so am I.

Oh, I so totally agree your views are different from mine. Your view appears to be using inaccuracies to promote demeaning of another person's character. When confronted, you seem to be asking me to dismiss it as being the American way- freedom of speech and all. You promoted your rhetoric as truth instead of opinion. You offered no sources or any statements from Rev. Wright or Sen. Obama that gives credibility to your disparagements. You show disdain for them for the very thing you are doing to them on this post! Then you repeat it in this response as if you are the standard-bearer for the topic. You do all this and say to me it is your right to your views! You went on to say:

...its just shameful his bitter views are directed at the land that has given him so much. Obama is free to worship where he likes and associate with whom he chooses, but remember that birds of a feather flock together.

You just could not resist another digg when you responded to me, could you! Your need to be right no matter what, no matter whom you offend, no matter the truth, is something I can not distinguish from a cowardice response.

Let's be clear, it is shameful that any bitter views are directed at the land that gave you so much! Of course, Sen Obama can worship wherever he wishes so your approval is unsolicited, not required, and completely irrelevant. Since you like quotes, here are a few for you to mull over:

"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." - Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." - Galileo Galilei
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Martin Luther King Jr. (1929-1968)
"The true measure of a man (or woman) is how he (she) treats someone who can do him (her) absolutely no good." - Samuel Johnson (1709-1784)
"Most people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so." - Bertrand Russell (1872-1970)

Jen,

Excellent post!

This is simply genius:

Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Martin Luther King Jr. (1929-1968)

Gipper1

During the weekend we watched Rev.Wright self-destruct, he began with an appearance that Friday on Moyers(PBS). He was great! He also told a story about serving in the military as a nurses aide to the President. He left the room for coffee and the secret service spilled it all over him when he tried to return because they did not think the (Black) man was to be in the room with the President. In the course of getting clearance, those who vouched for him found it laughable that he had been burned! This is where this man lives! We forget he had already retired (I suspect a little senility involved) as Pastor. But to dismiss his accomplishments...service to the President, brought home hostages with Jesse Jackson, and boy you gotta read about the churches programs! They are not playing church, they are actively doing for others. Just common sense alone would tell you that if they were radical people, we would have heard it before now! This is not Sen,. Obama's first run at an office.

We may not be the same color, but I admire Sen. Obama's ability to treat this man as a man. When we say things like he is unpatriotic it is no different than saying this country is not as much his as it is ours. There is no perfection and God knows we have shown ugliness as recently as today toward one another, but to imply that this land belongs to any group more than another group is just awfu,l in my opinion.

Horrified, I'm aware that the McCain-Hagee relationship was mostly one-way, and McCain was pushed to publicly denounce Hagee after Hagee's endorsement gained sufficient negative backlash. That being said, I was pointing out that guilt by association either works universally, or doesn't work at all.

Jack

That is so true. A few minutes ago, they talked about Palin's Pastor speaking in tongues and dancing in the aisles. They say he said that those who voted for Kerry would not go to heaven and Alaska will be a place of refuge when Christ returns. Not exactly mainstream, but aired as just daily information. There are no hourly clips or announcements. There are no polls to be taken. It is a double standard. I have long understood that these issues are not really the issues.

McCain's campaign says they are going to make this race about personalities and not policies. In other words, it is a question of do you really want people who will change the face (quite literally) of who is in the White House? Then they turn right around and say how dare you (Democrats) suggest we are adding racism innuendos.

I don't care about gender and I don;t care about race. I care that I can pay my bills, keep my home, and my family members can go to schools with strong educators and affordable college. I want the planet safe from inside and outside harm. Here is the catch, when I ask them how you will make that happen, only one side tells me while the other says, "Don't believe them". Sorry for the tantrum.

But Jack, as you are surely aware, there is a difference between "guilt by association" and "culpability based on close relationship". While Obama has repudiated his relationship with Rev. Wright now (after saying that he would not, could not, should not do so), we must still question his judgment about seeking out Rev. Wright, calling him a mentor and teacher and inspiration, spending 20 years with him, getting baptized by him, getting married by him, naming a book after one of his sermons (which had racially divisive language in the message, by the way), and attending a church where Hezbollah literature was promoted.

By the way, if the Left attacks Palin's pastors and churches, it's just going to dredge up the Rev. Wright controversy again. Does anyone on the Left really want to go there?

Tom Bombadil

I have no problems with it coming back up. I am not afraid and I think perhaps folks will come to realize just how dumb this argument is. I doubt it will have the attention that was given to Obama's Pastor. He is Black and thus more questionable than the practices found in Palin's White church. It is as simple as that. I have watched this campaign minute by minute and the tone attached to whatever said is based on who it effects. If it is Obama it is to be set as troublesome and if it is McCain it is passed along and we move on to the next conversation. By the way, I just heard Campbell Brown (CNN) say the church offered an apology for the Kerry comment. So, that will be the end of that.

I can't make you or others stop and think about what you say , but I sure hope you will. Your comments say a great deal in explanation about why this country is so divided. Sadly, we hear but we do not listen.

I wouldn't mind if it came back up either. If the right still has an issue with it, by way of some suppressed racism, it might help to revisit it.

What's there to be scared of?

The Obama campaign definitely does not want it to come back up.

Obama himself has denounced Rev. Wright's comments; and I don't believe Obama agrees with Wright's extreme views. Most African American pastors do not teach Black Liberation Theology - it is an extreme doctrine.

Let me state here, without blowing my own cover, that I do a lot of charitable, humanitarian, and community work, and it puts me in regular contact with many African American leaders, including pastors. Wright and his mentors Cone, Felder, and others are considered extreme.

For all of that to come up again would be damaging, not only to Obama, but to the whole country.

I have listened to numerous complete messages by Rev. Wright and read the transcripts. I watched his press conferences and speeches after the controversy blew up earlier this year. He is a very angry, bitter, and dishonest man. Perhaps he is blinded by his own anger, but he took numerous half-truths, out-of-context historical tidbits, and some outright myths and forged an entirely new and misleading narrative about America.

Rev. Jeremiah Wright should thank God every day that he was born and raised in America, because America has been very good to him. And, I'm sure that the carpet is so deep and plush in his new Chicago mansion that when Rev. Wright gets on his knees to thank God, his knees will be feeling no pain.

Seriously, you guys want the Wright debate opened up again?

Seriously, you guys want the Wright debate opened up again?

I don't know, Tom, if it's going to sit there and fester it might be for the best to clean out that wound, though I expect the operation would be a messy one.

The situation, if it came around again would likely be a flashpoint for a discussion on racism and oppression in America and, possibly, globally - because this is a global problem that none of us are free of.

Maybe if we don't discuss it until we drop we eventually end up as crazy as the middle east with their umpteen generations of religious/tribal hatred.

Dunno.

I have a thought, how about they can make a separate seed, or maybe they can just exchange private emails?

Here's the thing ... I don't want to talk about it anymore. I posted dozens of comments about it during the early part of this year, wrote several articles, and seeded many more.

I have personally met and spent time privately with Dr. Caine Hope Felder - one of Rev. Wright's Liberation Theology mentors. This whole issue is something I am well-acquainted with, but I think it's one of those dead horses that shouldn't be ridden any more. The Obama Campaign is very, very seriously hoping that it will not be resurrected. It was sadly painful for Obama to disvow his association with Rev. Wright, and it was gut-wrenching for Rev. Wright also. And, it was very damaging to Obama's campaign.

If Palin's churches are brought into the discussion, it will force more comparisons with Wright's statements. It would not be a good thing for anyone.

the kingdom of God is not meat, or drink, but righteousness peace and joy in the HS.
Give unto Caesar...I note, I read, I vote, I pray and try to keep religion out of politics
Perhaps providence keeps God in the mix of politics.

I could see ups and downs about that.

It'd be cool to have actual video people refer to.

But then at the same time, I don't need video of people yelling at each other. I can barely deal with all of the caps lock & bold going on at times.

Jen, Rev Wrights statment was GOD BLESS AMERICA,NO, NO, NO, GOD DAMN AMERICA, there was no "if" about it.

Let me make sure I understand you right, the only point of value was I made a mistake? That's it? That's all that is important to you? You read the transcript and you are here to report that I made a mistake and nothing more? Well you are right, I should have rechecked instead of just recalling it from memory. It was "as" instead of "if". The "if was in reference to another quote often spoken about by Rev. Wright.

This tells me that you chose not to read for information but to prove me wrong. So for those who will read for education and fairness, here are pertinent excerpts. I apologize for the length.

SEPT 2001

…heard Ambassador [Edward] Peck on an interview yesterday, did anybody else see him or hear him? He was on Fox News. This is a white man, and he was upsetting the Fox News commentators to no end. Did you see him, John? A white man. He pointed out, an ambassador, that what Malcolm X said when he got silenced by Elijah Muhammad was in fact true, that America's chickens are coming home to roost…

…"America's chickens are coming home to roost. Violence begets violence. Hatred begets hatred and terrorism begets terrorism. A white ambassador said that, y'all, not a black militant. Not a reverend who preaches about racism. An ambassador whose eyes are wide open and who's trying to get us to wake up and move away from this dangerous precipice upon which we are now poised. The ambassador said the people that we have wounded don't have the military capability we have but they do have individuals who are willing to die, to take thousands with them, and we need to come to grips with that. Let me stop my faith footnote right there. And ask you to think about this for the next few weeks if God grants us that. Turn back to your neighbor and say: 'Footnote is over.'

JULY 2003

Excerpt: "Prior to Abraham Lincoln, the government in this country said it was legal to hold Africans in slavery in perpetuity. Perpetuity is one of them University of Chicago words that means forever. From now on.

"When Lincoln got into office the government changed. Prior to the passing of the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments to the Constitution, the government defined Africans as slaves, as property. Property. People with no rights to be respected by any whites anywhere. The Supreme Court of the government, same court, granddaddy court of the one that stole the 2000 election. The Supreme Court said in its Dred Scott decision, in the 1850s, no African anywhere in this country has any rights that any white person has to respect at any place any time.

"God was against slavery on yesterday and God who does not change is still against slavery today. God was a God of love yesterday, and God who does not change is still a God of love today. God was a God of justice on yesterday, and God who does not change is still a God of justice today. Turn to your neighbor and say: 'God does not change.'

"Where governments lie, God does not lie. Where governments change, God does not change. And I'm through now. But let me leave you with one more thing.

"Governments fail. The government in this text, comprised of Caesar . . . [and] Pontius Pilate, the Roman government failed. The British government used to rule from East to West. The British government had a Union Jack. She colonized Kenya, Ghana, Nigeria, Jamaica, Barbados, Trinidad and Hong Kong. Her navies ruled the Seven Seas all the way down to the tip of Argentina in the Falklands. But the British government failed. The Russian government failed. The Japanese government failed. The German government failed.

"And the United States of America government, when it came to treating her citizens of Indian descent fairly, she failed. She put them on the reservations. When it came to treating her citizens of Japanese descent fairly, she failed. She put them in internment prison camps. When it came to treating the citizens of African descent fairly, America failed. She put them in chains. The government put them on slave quarters, put them on auction blocks, put them in cotton fields, put them in inferior schools, put them in substandard housing, put them in scientific experiments, put them in the lowest paying jobs, put them outside the equal protection of the law, kept them out of the racist bastions of higher education and locked them into positions of hopelessness and helplessness. The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing 'God Bless America'?

"No, no, no, not 'God Bless America,' 'God Damn America.' That's in the Bible, for killing innocent people. God damn America for treating its citizens as less than human, God damn America as long as she tries to act like she is God and she is supreme. The United States government has failed the vast majority of her citizens of African descent."

Please note the dates. The famous GD was not the Sunday after 9/11... the Edward Peck comment was.

And of course, he totally misrepresented the Peck remark. The Wright sermons are so full of lies, half-truths, myths, and bloviation that I can't believe anyone still wants to defend them. Obama himself has repudiated them.

I could post many lengthy rebuttals to Rev. Wright, but I don't want to hijack this thread.

Does the Left want to continue to push the Palin pastor issue? Because doing so is only going to revive the Wright controversy. And, more Americans are comfortable with traditional Evangelicalism or even Pentecostalism than they are with radical, racist, America-hating Liberation Theology.

Tom Bombadil

And, more Americans are comfortable with traditional Evangelicalism or even Pentecostalism than they are with radical, racist, America-hating Liberation Theology.

Your hatred is strong and I am sure you are willing to hijack this post to share it. That said, I will leave you to hate alone. I am so glad my God is nothing like you, but you are in my prayers.

Jen, show me where I said anything hateful please. Furthermore, I said I do not want to spend a lot of time on Rev. Wright anymore. I don't. After I said it, you immediately accused me of lying. Perhaps you need to settle down a bit, because I think you are over-reacting. Calling me a liar and a hater is over the line.

We have a disagreement and I have not been uncivil with you, so I was really surprised by the level of vitriol your remark displays. You are very new here, and you have no context for making that accusation. I refer you to #20.3 and the commentary preceding it.

I should have referred to comment #20.30 and now #20.33 ... that may remove the accusation that I am a hater or a liar.

Tom Bombadil

I was not clear. When I read your posts, it made me feel you hated this Pastor, his church and everything it stood for. That is what I took from your posts as my personal opinion and it made me sad. My response should have been more clearly defined, true, but the bottom line was that I felt like you hated these people and if Sen. Obama had connection to them, he could not possibly be a good person.

You posted your views and I posted a response. I had no idea that responding to what you wrote would obligate you to respond back. I thought it was a choice. If you do not wish to talk about it anymore...don't. I don't see anywhere in my post that I called you a liar. I have no idea if you or Rev. Wright for that matter is lying or not. I have not researched Rev. Wrights words to learn if they are all true or that your calling him a liar is accurate. However, I think we all know about the drugs being given to Blacks which Clinton addressed during his Presidency. The rest of the accusations of minorities(from the portion of the sermon I posted) seems as though it could have occurred, so I would have to research it before saying he lied. I just don't know. That said, since you added in that I called you a liar. Perhaps I missed when I did that so you could lend credibility to your accusation of me by posting this. I did reread my post, but I can't find those words directly or indirectly. I don't recall ever calling a poster a liar. I have said things said about Sen. Obama were lies, but I don't recall calling a poster, in this case you, a liar. Perhaps you will show that to me and I will own it and apologize for it. It does just show how easily we can misinterpret one another. I think this kind of interpretation may have happened to Pastor Wright and Sen. Obama by association.

Tom, if you are offended because you feel you were being called a liar and a hater by me, how do you think that Pastor and church feels when it was done to them based on little information? I am but one person and it sounds like you did not like it. Can you transfer that feeling to others who had this placed on them, but multiplied the attack by millions? In my opinion, it is just so irresponsible.

You have not been uncivil with me and I am grateful for that. I did not think I was uncivil with you as I simply gave you a response of the feelings your posts left upon me. I really felt like you hated these people. Your posts said to me that you did not find any value or substance within any of them and by association Sen. Obama had no value or substance. I have never met you or those people but in reading your post and so many others like it, I found myself greatly burdened and I did pray for you and all others that I felt were making quick decisions about people.

I do support Sen. Obama but it has been based on a compare and contrast to what Sen. McCain says/does. Many want Sen. Obama to answer for anyone he knows who we have found a fault. There are people surrounding Sen. McCain too, but these people are given a pass and I am not talking about Hagee. And let me just say, I heard what Palin said in her church and I think it should be discussed, but I also think that it would be wrong to hold what she said against her. If she speaks in tongues and dances and believes God has a role in the pipelines and wars, I am okay with that. I don't find her or her church racist, anti American or filled with hate. I DON'T KNOW THEM. What I do believe is I have the right to know how it would effect her governing and if it does not influence, then that is fine by me. If it influences in ways I approve of, again, it is fine with me. If it goes against what I desire for our country, then I don't have to demean her or her church publicly. All I need do is take note and vote for my interest on election day.

I am new to this. I have been posting about two months. I thought it would be a wonderful forum for open discussions and for the most part it has been. I do hate the personal attacks. The irony is that it speaks to the very points of Rev. Wright's sermons. He said we would do exactly what we are doing! We are mean people who enjoy (self included) bashing others. Try this, Pastor Wright, said:

"God was against slavery on yesterday and God who does not change is still against slavery today. God was a God of love yesterday, and God who does not change is still a God of love today. God was a God of justice on yesterday, and God who does not change is still a God of justice today. Turn to your neighbor and say: 'God does not change.'

That did not get any attention by anyone. We need to ask ourselves why this was irrelevant for those who bothered to go back and read the sermons. If you disagreed with all he said, surely this passage told you how God fits into his teachings. I don't agree with everything he says and I don't know the facts to debate them, but I heard enough to know they are not

radical, racist, America-hating Liberation Theology.

and that is my opinion.

Thanks for your response, and I appreciate it.

My study of Liberation Theology generally (and I went to a Jesuit College in the 80s where it was rife on campus) and Black Liberation Theology specifically has demonstrated to me that these are distorted doctrines. Perhaps many adherents of these ideas have noble aspirations; they may be sincere, but I believe they are sincerely wrong.

As to Rev. Wright's assertions (including the government giving drugs to black Americans), many of them are either myths or half-truths. Again, I don't want to threadjack here with a lengthy refutation of some of these assertions.

I don't hate Rev. Jeremiah Wright, or one of his mentors - Dr. Cain Hope Felder, who I have met personally. I honor Rev. Wright's honorable military service and wish him no ill-will. But, all too often, he turned his pulpit into a fountainhead of hatred and bitterness and untruth. When you read the writings of his primary spiritual mentor, Dr. James Cone, you discover a tremendous amount of hatred and racism ... and a firm commitment to divisiveness.

The vast majority of African American pastors in the USA do not agree with Black Liberation Theology, although it is popular in some seminaries (like many Leftist notions that are popular in academia).

Tom Bombadil

When you first responded to me, you told me I called you a liar and again, I don't think I did that. I am not angry, but my point is you understood me to say something I did not. I read your piece and felt like you hated these people and you have corrected me on that. You read the sermons and felt it spoke to racism. I read it and felt he was telling in a unorthodox way how easily countries throughout history have assumed Gos authority and paid a price for doing so. I heard in that message that we must not think ourselves so superior that we do not show humility for God almighty. Now I have read only the sermons attached to the videos, but I did not find them hateful at all. Again, I don't know enough history, but I did learn that Black men were intentionally given a Venereal Disease during Rev. Wright coming of age, I believe. Then there is the story of being burned with hot coffee by the secret service when he attended the President in the military and was laughed at instead of treated. I can't imagine having to be a Black person of that era. It's not an excuse, unless you are Black and of his age, I doubt if you can begin to understand. If you are white, at least according to my friends, you may never know even if you ask for information. I am told you have to live it to understand it.

For me the bottomline is not what he said or what he did not say. 1) It is more about having the right to say it, 2) His audience seem to understand the language (which is whom he is trying to reach), 3) We have had no evidence that the teachings has produced a single negative result. Outside of insinuations/opinions, Sen. Obama (like him or not) has not shown radical behavior even when I felt he should! Shamefully, I read his wailing wall prayer and it was most humble. My point is that we are creating him into a person that think him to be instead of accepting him just as he is. Kinda like God accepts all of us.

I just wish we would accept others without stereotypes until unless they actually give us legitimate reasons.

Jen, blacks were treated terribly all too often in our history. On that we agree. And, that was definitely true up through the 1960s. In fact, there are still too many incidents of racism occurring.

However, as Obama notes, we are not living in the 1960s or the 1860s. Furthermore, Wright gave several examples over different sermons that perpetuated myths or fueled suspicion and fear. The drug issue, the Katrina issue, and ... yes, let's discuss the Tuskeegee experiments with regard to syphillis. It was disgraceful. The government didn't "give" venereal disease to black men. But, in cooperation with Tuskeegee Institute, they pretended to treat a number of black men who already had syphillis in order to track the progress and spread of the disease. This disgrace went on until 1972, when it was stopped. There were numerous apologies and attempts made to make things better.

Obama has repeatedly repudiated the comments of Rev. Wright, and so I think it behooves Senator Obama's supporters to do the same. Let Rev. Wright retire in peace, if he will do so (which he may not, since he has a big book coming out). He's a sad and bitter man, and it shows. He was, no doubt, discriminated against by some whites. But, he has repeatedly stereotyped all whites since then, and his mentor, James Cone, has said downright hateful things about whites.

I hate what some whites - too many whites - did to African Americans over the centuries. America has made big strides away from that behavior and big strides continue to be made. Either we live for a future of racial reconciliation or we look back and fight all of those fights all over again.

I tell you I love the God of my faith. Sen. Obama was put through the wringer about his Pastor and now another Pastor of a candidate has said something similar in meaning. You want to excuse on a loophole what another Pastor said that amounts to the same sentiments because he said "will". Meanwhile you do not acknowledge that the next word from Rev. Wright statement was "if". You got to love the hypocrisy of some Americans. This man will most likely never meet your approval in my opinion because there are reasons only known in your own heart, that will not allow you to accept him. You will go vote against your interest because to accept that information that proves how he has been lied on, cheated, talked about and mistreated is too much work for you to learn and would cause you to have to admit he is a viable choice.

You know what I hate about this campaign most is that people are so willing to accept lies instead of being determine to go out of their way to prove either candidate as Worthy. The government records show Sen. McCain really has voted with Bush 90% of the time so we really will have a third term of the same policies. Yet you ignore that and prefer to talk about what Pastor said "will".

Sen. McCain has said, I am a Maverick and I will veto all earmarks that cross my desk and you will know their names, my friends. LOL. A maverick would have said to his party, I make my own decision and I want Lieberman. A uniting party would have said, that is your choice and a great choice as it shows the uniting of the parties, but instead they barked and chose for John. As for the earmarks, did his VP not keep the Bridge to Nowhere earmarked money? Would it not be a show of his intention to call her out for it now as he would as President? What a joke, but you accept this as great judgement and character and fault Sen. Obama for the ability to accept a Pastor whose views did not always agreed with his, but he still found value in him. If you are familiar with Christianity, it is what God requires and practices with us each and every day. No man despite how smart he thinks he is is perfect. God loves us unconditionally and expects this of us. If you are not of the faith you will not understand this necessarily, but if you are, you need to repent.

Jen, 21.2 is for you

You are totally right...thank you.

Rants-opine, Beverly H

post 22.1 was written to you.

Please tell me what chapter and verse I can find in the Bible where it says that "God helps those who help themselves". As far as I can tell, the Bible is very clear about Absolute reliance on God's grace and favor. However, I do agree this country needs a change of direction, but some pie in the sky talk of "change", without a clear and concise plan, spoon fed to us by the media regarding Mr. Obama is hardly a plan.

Could be one of those Shakespearean things that people are always using as bible quotes, but I will go on a quest to find out where it actually came from.

Back already-- I stand very corrected in my ignorance. Ben Franklin said that in 1757 and the Bible actually teaches just the opposite. Jer-17:5 and Prov: 28:26. Guess the best way I can weasel out now is to change what I said to Ben Franklin said blah blah. But the need for positive change part still stands.

atsidiwashichu: A refreshing post - someone actually admits to being "wrong". A rose in the onion patch :) Not sure how the two scriptures you post fit in here, but how you interpret them is your right. To admit error is a real character indicator - thank you.

Well-- I admit I did not read them, but when I looked up the thing about God helping those that help themselves, those were the two scriptures that were given as to what the Bible says after the info I googled informed me that it was a quote by Ben Franklin. I don't have any problem with admitting I am wrong, I have a gread deal of practice at it. On the other hand I take a great deal of pleasure out of being able to say "I told you so."

sharry30

Just curious, did you determine Sen. Obama was pie in the sky before or after you took the time to read his policies and speeches?

atsidiwashichu
We may or may not agree, but you have my respect for your honesty. It is too rarely seen!

Jen:

A huge AMEN for sharry30 re your comment regarding atsidiwashichu. I have already applauded this person for their honesty and am happy some one else made note of it too.
Thank you

Before, his speeches are too good and filled with too many promises for this old skeptic. Thanks for the compliments by the way.

I think her moral, rather the willingness to impose them on the electorate are a very real issue. However, as "Alaskans wake up everyday knowing that they are on the front line and would face the first strike of any Russian invasion." This sounds like a tremendous responsibility.

I'm trying to imagine what the debates might sound like...(wavy fade-out to paraphrased interchange from "A Few Good Men"):

"Palin: Ever served in a forward area? Ever put your life in another man's hands? And asked him to put his life in yours? We follow orders, son. We follow orders, or people die. It's that simple. Are we clear?

Palin: You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men who ban books. Who's gonna do it? You?! I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for "Ducky has two Daddies" and you curse the Bridge to Nowhere. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that banning "Ducky has two Daddies", while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives! You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about in reality, you want me on that wall! You need me on that wall! We use words like "Family Values", "Partial Birth Abortion", "God's Will". We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline! I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said, "Thank you," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a bible and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!"

She has had to live in and govern our largest state

By area, not by population. By population, the mayors of about 20 US cities govern bigger populations.

Right of Reagan---This is a joke, right? You actually believe that Alaska's proximity to Russia means something? That her morals are not an issue to be a heartbeat away from the President? Come on now LOL. The large state consists mainly of trees, ice, bears, caribou, moose---yeah, she's fit to govern them but that's about it!!!

LOL, Ire. You get high marks for originality.

Sir: I can understand the US borrowing money from China - that is where most of our jobs have gone!! China is the one with most of the money. I do not like debt of any kind, and do not have any. However, our country does appear to be bankrupt in many ways.
It seems we have lost the ability to live on what we earn (that is what we earn MINUS the taxes we pay). Bad judgement by lenders in this country have really put a dent in the US economy. Those that hold the majority of the supply of fuel are really the ones with the upper hand. Never understood why so many oil wells were capped in the US - cheaper oil from other countries is my assumption.

China is the one with most of the money.

To be fair, China's GDP lags far behind the US's and Japan's.

Mr. Huang: I do NOT know enough about China to have made the statement I don't suppose. However, I will not dispute your comment - just don't understand why the US is having to borrow so much money from them??? I am sure our politicians have an explanation for that, I just haven't heard it yet. Thank you for the information. FYI - strangely, I agree with the majority of your postings.

just don't understand why the US is having to borrow so much money from them?

Partly, the war in Iraq. :-P

Bush's hyperspending has put US in a somewhat precariously political dependency with regards to China. Not only is China our biggest trading partner, but it holds a huge amount of US debt. While holding onto it is in China's best interests, the more paranoid in the US see it as a knife over our heads.

Thank you - that makes a lot of sense. My knowledge of China is very limited mostly to nearly everything I purchase says "Made in China". Farming does not leave me much time to read as much as I need to in order to be aware of foreign policies and the countries themselves. I appreciate your explanation.

No problem. Anytime.

I'm a bit curious, now that you mention your farming: what do you plant/raise?

Texas Longhorn Cattle!!! They are wonderful, and we are having our calf crop for this year. Never can tell what color the baby will be by looking at the mom and pop. Longhorns do NOT get diseases other cattle get such as pink eye, and the calves are so tiny when born, we never have to pull one. Coyotes don't bother them - my bull, steers and mama cows ALL defend the calves. Some of my steers have horn spread of 7 feet tip to tip, and stand 6 feet at the shoulder. They are so gentle and beautiful. We raise our own hay, have ducks, geese, catfish pond, peacocks, two turkeys, hens and two guineas. My two male peacocks saved a very small white hen from a hawk the other day - I gave both of them promotions and a lot of respect. The hawk "fell" off that fence and didn't move any more. WE have one lady donkey, Miss Frankie!! She is a love and funny too. Everything here is petted and over fed!! I always hate to sell the calf crop, and we can't feed one out to butcher - just can't do it. Thank you for asking. The wife and I are retired and love the country even though we only have 80 acres. My best to you sir.

Sweet. My dad graduated from UT-Austin, so Longhorns (and longhorns) are pretty special to my family.

Some of my steers have horn spread of 7 feet tip to tip, and stand 6 feet at the shoulder.

Wow. *compares to own height* That's impressive.

We raise our own hay, have ducks, geese, catfish pond, peacocks, two turkeys, hens and two guineas.

Sounds like an awesome farm.

My two male peacocks saved a very small white hen from a hawk the other day - I gave both of them promotions and a lot of respect.

Wow, I've never heard of peacocks save anything from... anything else. I always thought they were rather full of themselves and inept.

Thank you for asking. The wife and I are retired and love the country even though we only have 80 acres. My best to you sir.

Thank you for the wonderful description. My girlfriend's the country, outdoorsy type, so I might be looking at a similar retirement down the line. :-)

Good Morning Mr. Huang!! I, too, graduated from UT many years ago. I too thought peacocks were mostly useless, and for sure "full of themselves and inept", and noise makers deluxe!!
I would not believe what I observed if I had not seen it myself. They were doing a super job of defending my very small white hen. My male turkey was even trying to help. Maybe even stranger - My geese, all males,
help my ducks with their babies. They protect and "escort" them every place they go. It is truly a shame human beings can not be as kind to each other as these "animals". You know, animals are God's only perfect creations - we do ALL the "sinnin"!!

I truly hope you and your girlfriend consider a farm of whatever size you would both like. I seldom leave here except doctor, pharmacy or Wal Mart. WM is just about the only store in this small town. I have to order a lot of things over the internet. That is fine with me!! I don't reckon our conversation is in keeping with this "discussion", but after reading so much disagreement and discontent, maybe it is a good "discussion" any way. We also have (they noted I did not mention them) one barn cat, two house cats, and one house dog. Dog is a pup, and so hyper she will be doing good if I let her make it to adulthood!! She is a Blue Heeler and full of S- - t. Maybe she will survive my discipline - she is beautiful and really a test of my patience. I wish you the best life has to offer sir, and I admire and respect your vast knowledge of many topics.

Hehe, no problem. Sorry about getting so sidetracked, Gipper1.

My dear Gipper1 - Oh well, I knew we were somewhat off the "topic", but what a nice break from all the hatred and disagreements posted here. Mr. Huang is a very intelligent man and contributes much to your "discussion". Whereas I, and several others, just voice "opinions" and not really facts. My apologies for taking up so much space on "trivial" discussion. Two men are almost as bad as two women when it comes to "talking". I will not engage any one else in conversation. This will be my last post here.